Property Trade Association
This is exactly why we set up a special area for members of the PTA, it started off well but nothing has been posted for at least three months. Draw your own conclusions.Whilst I don't expect the minutes of the meeting to be published here, it would be nice to see a few bullet points summarising what is going on occasionally.
There is nothing sinister going on at all.
SJ is entirely correct: presently, a small group of lawyers and traders are developing a charter and bye laws and gathering the names required to officially register the association. Real progress is not far away.
It IS rather disappointing for those involved that so few traders are presently willing to lend a hand, but it is also easier to have constructive meetings without the larger crowd. Early meetings were so chaotic that most participants opted out. That's why the private forum has gone quiet.
I think the reason for HHAD providing a private forum for this subject was to allow those involved to get on with the work without the inevitable storm of input from consumers. News can be read in the Hua Hin Hotline newspaper and will surely be posted here when there is something important to announce.
IMO, attempting to regulate the real estate industry here is extremely difficult, even dangerous. Please be patient while these few, engaged individuals get the association started. The feeling is that once the initial leg work is done, many will want to join.
cd.
SJ is entirely correct: presently, a small group of lawyers and traders are developing a charter and bye laws and gathering the names required to officially register the association. Real progress is not far away.
It IS rather disappointing for those involved that so few traders are presently willing to lend a hand, but it is also easier to have constructive meetings without the larger crowd. Early meetings were so chaotic that most participants opted out. That's why the private forum has gone quiet.
I think the reason for HHAD providing a private forum for this subject was to allow those involved to get on with the work without the inevitable storm of input from consumers. News can be read in the Hua Hin Hotline newspaper and will surely be posted here when there is something important to announce.
IMO, attempting to regulate the real estate industry here is extremely difficult, even dangerous. Please be patient while these few, engaged individuals get the association started. The feeling is that once the initial leg work is done, many will want to join.
cd.
All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. (Edmund Burke).
Hi All, sorry for taking so long to get this online.... Super Joe thanks for the buzz, again sorry for the delay.
This is some of the info regarding what's going on with the Property Association:
It's been some time since we've been able to post any information or news on the Property Association.
It's not that the idea has died, or been written off, simply that we've been trying to refine it to the best of our abilities and trying to solidify a concept that works for everyone.
It seems much of the former issues we faced were because we couldn't get very much concrete on paper after the multitude of discussions we had had.
Many of the reports I personally got revolved around the fact that the Association was yet to "get off the ground" and be registered as a proper working body rather than just speculation in the air so to speak.
From the core group a decision was taken to form an Association for Developers and then form a separate association for Real Estate Agents. Then two associations in theory could then work in conjunction.
We have taken leaps and bounds in this arena. We are currently on the verge of submitting the required paperwork necessary in order to register the association, as long as the group on a whole is agreeable to the Codes of Conduct for members of the association.
The last meeting brought together a few developers who were able to come to an agreement on many of the proposed codes of conduct.
FOR THOSE OF YOU INTERESTED IN SEEING THE CODES OF CONDUCT PLEASE VISIT THE Property Trade Association Section of the FORUM.
This is some of the info regarding what's going on with the Property Association:
It's been some time since we've been able to post any information or news on the Property Association.
It's not that the idea has died, or been written off, simply that we've been trying to refine it to the best of our abilities and trying to solidify a concept that works for everyone.
It seems much of the former issues we faced were because we couldn't get very much concrete on paper after the multitude of discussions we had had.
Many of the reports I personally got revolved around the fact that the Association was yet to "get off the ground" and be registered as a proper working body rather than just speculation in the air so to speak.
From the core group a decision was taken to form an Association for Developers and then form a separate association for Real Estate Agents. Then two associations in theory could then work in conjunction.
We have taken leaps and bounds in this arena. We are currently on the verge of submitting the required paperwork necessary in order to register the association, as long as the group on a whole is agreeable to the Codes of Conduct for members of the association.
The last meeting brought together a few developers who were able to come to an agreement on many of the proposed codes of conduct.
FOR THOSE OF YOU INTERESTED IN SEEING THE CODES OF CONDUCT PLEASE VISIT THE Property Trade Association Section of the FORUM.
Sure thing SJ,
Here it comes...
1. The Member shall ensure that the land will be free of any mortgage or any other encumbrances at the date of registration
2. The Member will ensure that upon a sale of the land or a Lease being granted to the Buyer, the land is legally and properly in the name of the person who is selling the land or granting the Lease.
3.(i) The Member will specify to the Buyer in advance, and include in the contract, if applicable :
a. All guaranties and warranties for the structure and component parts of the house; and
b. Completely and unconditionally honour those guarantees and warranties throughout the warranty/guarantee period.
ii. In default, the Association will enforce all warranties/guarantees agreed between the Member and the Buyer
4. The Member will ensure that the Lease and the Construction/House Purchase/Condominium Purchase Agreement shall contain a clause for the parties to attempt to resolve any dispute in an amicable manner, but if the parties are unable to agree a resolution, then any such dispute shall be referred to arbitration.
5. The Member will ensure that the Lease Agreement shall be in Thai and in English or an alternative foreign language agreed between the Member and the Buyer, with the English or the alternative foreign language version of the Contract prevailing in the event of any dispute.
6. The Member undertakes to agree to Renewals, Transfers and Assignments in the Lease Agreement subject to all legislation, rules and regulations issued by the Thai Government and the Thai Land Department from time to time.
7. The Member will ensure that the house has a valid construction permit.
8. All modifications, changes or alterations to the design of the house or any of its component parts, and the cost thereof, AFTER signing the Contract, shall be agreed in writing by both parties.
9. If applicable, The Buyer shall not pay any maintenance charges for the common areas until the date of completion/handover of the house from the Member to the Buyer.
10. The Member will at all times conduct him/her self in an open and honest manner and ensure transparency throughout.
Here it comes...
1. The Member shall ensure that the land will be free of any mortgage or any other encumbrances at the date of registration
2. The Member will ensure that upon a sale of the land or a Lease being granted to the Buyer, the land is legally and properly in the name of the person who is selling the land or granting the Lease.
3.(i) The Member will specify to the Buyer in advance, and include in the contract, if applicable :
a. All guaranties and warranties for the structure and component parts of the house; and
b. Completely and unconditionally honour those guarantees and warranties throughout the warranty/guarantee period.
ii. In default, the Association will enforce all warranties/guarantees agreed between the Member and the Buyer
4. The Member will ensure that the Lease and the Construction/House Purchase/Condominium Purchase Agreement shall contain a clause for the parties to attempt to resolve any dispute in an amicable manner, but if the parties are unable to agree a resolution, then any such dispute shall be referred to arbitration.
5. The Member will ensure that the Lease Agreement shall be in Thai and in English or an alternative foreign language agreed between the Member and the Buyer, with the English or the alternative foreign language version of the Contract prevailing in the event of any dispute.
6. The Member undertakes to agree to Renewals, Transfers and Assignments in the Lease Agreement subject to all legislation, rules and regulations issued by the Thai Government and the Thai Land Department from time to time.
7. The Member will ensure that the house has a valid construction permit.
8. All modifications, changes or alterations to the design of the house or any of its component parts, and the cost thereof, AFTER signing the Contract, shall be agreed in writing by both parties.
9. If applicable, The Buyer shall not pay any maintenance charges for the common areas until the date of completion/handover of the house from the Member to the Buyer.
10. The Member will at all times conduct him/her self in an open and honest manner and ensure transparency throughout.
Property Trade Association
Re. article 3bii, what powers of enforcement will the Association have and will they be underwritten by a bond or insurance policy?
5. The Member will ensure that the Lease Agreement shall be in Thai and in English or an alternative foreign language agreed between the Member and the Buyer, with the English or the alternative foreign language version of the Contract prevailing in the event of any dispute.
This is Thailand and the courts will only accept Thai written contracts. Leases are registered in Thai at the land office. How can a non Thai language lease 'prevail' in a Thai court?
This is Thailand and the courts will only accept Thai written contracts. Leases are registered in Thai at the land office. How can a non Thai language lease 'prevail' in a Thai court?
I've looked into this Jockey and I think you're right in that Thai Law Codes state:
Moving on from that and refering to court, some contracts now have a clause that in the event of discrepencies both parties agree that the Englsih version prevails, and some lawyers say this would stand up in court if both parties agreed to it, despite Section 14 above. Not convinced as I'm sure you're not, and if one party decides to challenge that agreement would court revert to law ?
SJ
Firstly the Association is requiring its members to contract that any dispute goes through the arbirtation process first, before going to court. So do they mean the English will prevail in that forum ? Needs clarifying.Section 14. Documents written in Thai & English: Whenever a document is in Thai language & another language, & there are discrepancies between the two versions the Thai document shall govern.
Moving on from that and refering to court, some contracts now have a clause that in the event of discrepencies both parties agree that the Englsih version prevails, and some lawyers say this would stand up in court if both parties agreed to it, despite Section 14 above. Not convinced as I'm sure you're not, and if one party decides to challenge that agreement would court revert to law ?
SJ
Couple of points about VCP’s list that someone may like to try to answer:
Numbers 1 & 2, surly that is just normal good practice, why does that this have to be included?
Number 3, all sections, how does the association intend to enforce these guarantees or warranties and what legal process can the association take to enforce?
Number, 4 how do you arbitrate with someone who has disappeared? I was informed that even if you win an arbitration case in Thailand the loser does not have to settle for 7 years. Will Farangh losers have their passports withdrawn for 7 years I wonder? And what happens if the Thai company goes bankrupt during those 7 years?
Number 5, if the law states that the Thai version is the one that is used in a court of law unless both parties agree to use the English version, then surly when one party objects, the Thai version is the one that the court will use?
Number 6, I would have thought that by issuing the lease in the first place you are bound by the rule of law which allows for transfers etc and the lease should have these clauses’ already written in from the first place ?
Number 7, is the obtaining of a valid building permit prior to construction commencing not the requirement of Thai law?
Number 8, is it not fairly obvious that all changes to a build or build specifications after the signing of the contract should be recorded in writing to protect both parties?
Number 9, why would anyone in their right mind pay maintenance charges for common areas until they are liable too, that time is when the purchase is completed, which is when the purchaser becomes the owner of the house/condo and even then why would the fees be due until the common areas are complete?
Number 10, what message does the association believe it is sending out when it feels fit to include such a section worded the way it is?
The only way to gain some protection when buying a house in Hua Hin is to buy it through an independent realtor who should have checked that these things are already in place and should have experience or knowledge of the developer. Problems can and do occur during a build and any realtor who is serious about his business reputation will happily arbitrate between the developer and the purchaser when and if these problems arise. If the developer refuses to reach an agreement the realtor should in future refuse to sell that developers products. If the purchaser becomes unreasonable then for sure they will find themselves without the services of the realtor and have to try to negotiate on their own.
I would love to see a developers association with enforceable terms in place to provide protection for both the purchaser and the developer, I am, like everyone else still waiting!
Numbers 1 & 2, surly that is just normal good practice, why does that this have to be included?
Number 3, all sections, how does the association intend to enforce these guarantees or warranties and what legal process can the association take to enforce?
Number, 4 how do you arbitrate with someone who has disappeared? I was informed that even if you win an arbitration case in Thailand the loser does not have to settle for 7 years. Will Farangh losers have their passports withdrawn for 7 years I wonder? And what happens if the Thai company goes bankrupt during those 7 years?
Number 5, if the law states that the Thai version is the one that is used in a court of law unless both parties agree to use the English version, then surly when one party objects, the Thai version is the one that the court will use?
Number 6, I would have thought that by issuing the lease in the first place you are bound by the rule of law which allows for transfers etc and the lease should have these clauses’ already written in from the first place ?
Number 7, is the obtaining of a valid building permit prior to construction commencing not the requirement of Thai law?
Number 8, is it not fairly obvious that all changes to a build or build specifications after the signing of the contract should be recorded in writing to protect both parties?
Number 9, why would anyone in their right mind pay maintenance charges for common areas until they are liable too, that time is when the purchase is completed, which is when the purchaser becomes the owner of the house/condo and even then why would the fees be due until the common areas are complete?
Number 10, what message does the association believe it is sending out when it feels fit to include such a section worded the way it is?
The only way to gain some protection when buying a house in Hua Hin is to buy it through an independent realtor who should have checked that these things are already in place and should have experience or knowledge of the developer. Problems can and do occur during a build and any realtor who is serious about his business reputation will happily arbitrate between the developer and the purchaser when and if these problems arise. If the developer refuses to reach an agreement the realtor should in future refuse to sell that developers products. If the purchaser becomes unreasonable then for sure they will find themselves without the services of the realtor and have to try to negotiate on their own.
I would love to see a developers association with enforceable terms in place to provide protection for both the purchaser and the developer, I am, like everyone else still waiting!
fatty: We had wanted to include one at first, however most of the consumer group opted out in the beginning leaving no nominees ... suggestions to the creation of such a group would be welcomed. I'm sure the separate associations could easily work in conjunction with each other.
arcadian: yes I feel we all agreed that the association should have some 'bite' otherwise it ends up as just a 'club' of sorts
jockey: I'm sure this was brought up at the last meeting, and Jim expressed that a clause in contract that explicitly states the English or translated version takes precedence over the Thai version is accepted.
arcadian: yes I feel we all agreed that the association should have some 'bite' otherwise it ends up as just a 'club' of sorts
jockey: I'm sure this was brought up at the last meeting, and Jim expressed that a clause in contract that explicitly states the English or translated version takes precedence over the Thai version is accepted.
Correct me if I'm wrong - but putting a clause into a contract that overrides the law does not hold any water. You can not dictate the law by writing a clause in a contract that contradicts or attempts to change the law. Any lawyer suggesting you can do this is suspect in my humble opinion. Can you imagine a contract written in Chinese in the UK that states that if a dispute were to occur the Chinese version will prevail and the UK court will be expected to use the Chinese version (not English). A clause like that would be laughed at in the UK, just as I assume it would be laughed at here in Thailand where (believe it or not) the law of the land and the Thai courts are written and spoken in Thai.VCP wrote:jockey: I'm sure this was brought up at the last meeting, and Jim expressed that a clause in contract that explicitly states the English or translated version takes precedence over the Thai version is accepted.
In all other points - good luck.