Some of the regulations that will be enforced by this new 'body', to help protect the buyers:
Individual land title for each plot.
Provide Land title searches
Building permit for each house.
House registration book (Tabien Bahn).
Tessabahn approved architects drawings.
Developer will be providing suitable project infrastructure and utilities.
Lease contracts that protect the buyer.
Lease contract is legally registered at land office.
Building contract that is fair and not loaded in favour of developer.
Suitable defects liability protection.
Facilities of properly qualified/licenced lawyers, architiects, engineers.
Don't know what they're doing about building regulations/codes of practice, obviously it's a well important one.
Ditto developers financial status and use of customers payments.
SJ
Code of conduct in the Hua Hin real estate market ?????
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malcolminthemiddle
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- Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:56 pm
- Location: Here,there and everywhere
Am I right in thinking there are three (3) separate bodies being discussed here?
Body 1 - A local business (agents, developers, builders etc), self governing initiative being promoted by PK.
Body 2 - A local authority initiative as described by SJ.
Body 3 - A commercial enterprise suggested by Splitlid.
Body 1 - A local business (agents, developers, builders etc), self governing initiative being promoted by PK.
Body 2 - A local authority initiative as described by SJ.
Body 3 - A commercial enterprise suggested by Splitlid.
Hi Malcolm,
splitlid's is what he feels would be the best 'body' to protect buyers, whilst good no-one is doing anything on it currently.
Me and PK are talking about the same 'body' which is being set-up now by some local officials with the blessing of the provincial governor, some senior police, the chief district officer (all at the first meeting) and the chief state attorney. It's what's going to happen and what we'll have to work with no matter what we think of it.
Real estate agents, developers and buyers have been involved only for input as to what the regulations should contain to best protect buyers. None of these will be involved in the running of it once it's formed.
PK has stated in the thread about the checks he has in place internally in his company, that may come across as being part of this, but it's his own domestic set-up.
There's a post yesterday saying who is planned to be on the committee.
Cheers,
SJ
splitlid's is what he feels would be the best 'body' to protect buyers, whilst good no-one is doing anything on it currently.
Me and PK are talking about the same 'body' which is being set-up now by some local officials with the blessing of the provincial governor, some senior police, the chief district officer (all at the first meeting) and the chief state attorney. It's what's going to happen and what we'll have to work with no matter what we think of it.
Real estate agents, developers and buyers have been involved only for input as to what the regulations should contain to best protect buyers. None of these will be involved in the running of it once it's formed.
PK has stated in the thread about the checks he has in place internally in his company, that may come across as being part of this, but it's his own domestic set-up.
There's a post yesterday saying who is planned to be on the committee.
Cheers,
SJ
Slowly with the running horses.
Khun Super Joe, I just have to clarify a couple of things.
1) Nothing is being set up yet, and there is no blessing of any governmental or police officials as yet either.
2) Nothing is going to happen now and we do not have to work with anything.
3) Agents, developers and buyers were not only involved for input, but also for real participation. Everybody will be involved.
4) What we do in our company has nothing to do with the body to be formed.
SJ, I am not sure where you got the info from, that apparently it is a done deal already. As to my knowlege it is not, unless there is someone else involved having done it in the meantime. But that would be without our knowlege and support and very questionable. I only could think of one and then we would be out if that would be true.
Again, our intention is to clearly involve everybody and that stays the same as long as we are involved.
pk
Khun Super Joe, I just have to clarify a couple of things.
1) Nothing is being set up yet, and there is no blessing of any governmental or police officials as yet either.
2) Nothing is going to happen now and we do not have to work with anything.
3) Agents, developers and buyers were not only involved for input, but also for real participation. Everybody will be involved.
4) What we do in our company has nothing to do with the body to be formed.
SJ, I am not sure where you got the info from, that apparently it is a done deal already. As to my knowlege it is not, unless there is someone else involved having done it in the meantime. But that would be without our knowlege and support and very questionable. I only could think of one and then we would be out if that would be true.
Again, our intention is to clearly involve everybody and that stays the same as long as we are involved.
pk
PK,
Sorry, I think we've got crossed wires between us.
SJ
Sorry, I think we've got crossed wires between us.
Cheers,1) Nothing is being set up yet, and there is no blessing of any governmental or police officials as yet either.
I mentioned that it is being set-up, ie: currently in the process of setting the body up.
The main person helping to organise this said in the newspaper report after the meeting that the District Chief Officer said he is willing to help the registration and establishing it. Also that the Deputy Commander of Provincial Police and Hua Hin Police Station Superintendent were willing to be consultants for it.
2) Nothing is going to happen now and we do not have to work with anything.
I never said anything is happening now, I said it is going to happen, ie: inthe future when it finalised.
3) Agents, developers and buyers were not only involved for input, but also for real participation. Everybody will be involved.
The agents, developers etc are not going to be on the committee though, just participating for input/ideas/suggestions.
4) What we do in our company has nothing to do with the body to be formed.
Yes, that's what I said: "the checks he has in place internally in his company, that may come across as being part of this, but it's his own domestic set-up"
SJ
SJ,
in the earlier reply(which disappeared miraculously), you mentioned that you and me work together on that. Well I know who we are talking to and working with, and sorry I don't think it's you, but I might be wrong against all odds.
I sent you a pm, would be glad to get a reply.
The process of setting up this body is not ongoing as we still do not know how it should look like. The motion to do something is ongoing, that is right.
Sorry, but I completely disagree with your comment, that the setup is proceeding and basically that this is the way it is going to be.
Yes, we want to set up whatever kind of body, but nothing is concluded yet. That is why I started this thread to get as much input and opinions as possible to filter which would be the best set up to involve as many parties as possible. This is to be a joint effort and not a "THAT'S IT" kind of thing. We have to have broad acceptance and support with what we do, in order to succeed.
pk
in the earlier reply(which disappeared miraculously), you mentioned that you and me work together on that. Well I know who we are talking to and working with, and sorry I don't think it's you, but I might be wrong against all odds.
I sent you a pm, would be glad to get a reply.
The process of setting up this body is not ongoing as we still do not know how it should look like. The motion to do something is ongoing, that is right.
Sorry, but I completely disagree with your comment, that the setup is proceeding and basically that this is the way it is going to be.
Yes, we want to set up whatever kind of body, but nothing is concluded yet. That is why I started this thread to get as much input and opinions as possible to filter which would be the best set up to involve as many parties as possible. This is to be a joint effort and not a "THAT'S IT" kind of thing. We have to have broad acceptance and support with what we do, in order to succeed.
pk
Hi PK,
I was told yesterday by someone involved in the process that the draft regulations should be ready for another main meeting within the next two weeks, that's why I said the set-up was ongoing.
What I mean't about this body being what we are going to have to work with, was in reply to others who are looking at other body set-ups. I'm saying this is the one that will be formed and that we will work with. Not saying the details of it are a done deal yet.
By the way I agree that it will be a good thing for the property market here and good protection for the buyers.
Cheers,
SJ
I was told yesterday by someone involved in the process that the draft regulations should be ready for another main meeting within the next two weeks, that's why I said the set-up was ongoing.
What I mean't about this body being what we are going to have to work with, was in reply to others who are looking at other body set-ups. I'm saying this is the one that will be formed and that we will work with. Not saying the details of it are a done deal yet.
By the way I agree that it will be a good thing for the property market here and good protection for the buyers.
Cheers,
SJ
SJ,
still regarding my last post, I forgot to mention that no draft regulation will be ready, but may be suggestions of how to run the whole thing, then to be discussed by whoever attends this next meeting, and I guess it will be more than 2 weeks, given the replies we get from here and other sources. We have to get it right.
Also, the body we had in mind might not be the ultimate, which is hard to achieve anyway, so we should be open for other alternatives as well.
By the way, agents, developers any suggestions on my post regarding a agents association and may be a developers association in two seperate bodies. Pros and cons??? Anything??
good night pk
still regarding my last post, I forgot to mention that no draft regulation will be ready, but may be suggestions of how to run the whole thing, then to be discussed by whoever attends this next meeting, and I guess it will be more than 2 weeks, given the replies we get from here and other sources. We have to get it right.
Also, the body we had in mind might not be the ultimate, which is hard to achieve anyway, so we should be open for other alternatives as well.
By the way, agents, developers any suggestions on my post regarding a agents association and may be a developers association in two seperate bodies. Pros and cons??? Anything??
good night pk
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malcolminthemiddle
- Guru
- Posts: 611
- Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:56 pm
- Location: Here,there and everywhere
Right, I think I've got it now.malcolminthemiddle wrote:Am I right in thinking there are three (3) separate bodies being discussed here?
Body 1 - A local business (agents, developers, builders etc), self governing initiative being promoted by PK.
Body 2 - A local authority initiative as described by SJ.
Body 3 - A commercial enterprise suggested by Splitlid.
There are three (3) separate bodies being discussed here.
Body 1 PK & SJ – A local authority initiative comprising of local officials with the blessing of the provincial governor, some senior police, the chief district officer (all at the first meeting) and the chief state attorney is in the process of being set up. The District Chief Officer said he is willing to help the registration and establishing it. Also that the Deputy Commander of Provincial Police and Hua Hin Police Station Superintendent were willing to be consultants for it. Real estate agents, developers and buyers who have been asked for their input pre-establishment will be excluded from this initiative once established. Draft regulations should be ready for another main meeting within the next two weeks,
Body 2 – A body set up by AN Other yet to be disclosed.
Body 3 - A commercial enterprise suggested by Splitlid.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
This topic needs a consensus if it is to be meaningful.
PKBCXKT wrote:Well, interesting alternative.
Question: Who should run this company?the owner same like you run your company Who will initially do the funding? the owner same as you fund your company
An independent company always tries to make profits, should this company also make profits?of course,its a business and will only work if making a profit Should that company be a set up by many developers joining and being shareholders? no, its an individual company,nothing to do with developer/agents govt bodies etc.
As said interesting, but feasable?? Questionmark ??
Regarding developers, it is not only the construction standards and quality it also concerns titles. Thorough titeldeed surches are to be done. Is the developer keeping promises of delivering infrastructure, maintenance, providing guarantees aso. Should this company also take care of all these matters? yes, as stated the company does stage inspection on the properties, also, before building commences all paper work must be in order.
I will be a little provocative now, and turn the stick around and suggest, that if all the agents get together and agree to only list and promote developments which conform to, lets say 10 criteria (this number can be anything), which have to be pretty stiff, then we would not need such a company or government involvement or whatever body, just an agents association, agreeing to a certain code of conduct.not bad idea, but doesnt prevent individual promotion of products/ or control quality beyond your chosen projects.
I know, may be wishful thinking, but may be worth a though, too.
pk
"All the otters don't understand me"
"We might make you bother"
"We might make you bother"
some light reading 
to help you through the day
http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents ... onsult.pdf
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/upload ... 011249.pdf
http://www.nhbcbuilder.co.uk/
^maybe not the greatest but definately the most used and known throughout england.
this part interesting http://www.nhbcbuilder.co.uk/NHBCpublic ... 859,en.pdf
to help you through the dayhttp://www.communities.gov.uk/documents ... onsult.pdf
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/upload ... 011249.pdf
http://www.nhbcbuilder.co.uk/
^maybe not the greatest but definately the most used and known throughout england.
this part interesting http://www.nhbcbuilder.co.uk/NHBCpublic ... 859,en.pdf
"All the otters don't understand me"
"We might make you bother"
"We might make you bother"
I keep reading these posts waiting for some consensus to be reached but am disappointed that it seems to be running in circles.
When I first brought up the subject of trade associations, independent inspectors and the ability of both contractor or buyer to utilize such services what I had in mind was a lot less complicated than what is currently in these discussions.
My thoughts on developing a trade association were that developers, builders, sales agents and interested building professionals could get together and promulgate for a start a short but all inclusive "inspection" report where either people from the selling or buying end of the deal could hire to have done......so when a person built or bought a piece of real property there would be a way to minimize the more blatant situations that happen here daily but seem to have no avenue for reconciliation.
I've listed them before, but I'll try to be brief in mentioning just a few.
1) Is the electrical system operable and free from serious defects, i.e., is it grounded? is run in conduit? has someone checked the entire building to be sure there aren't any open or short circuits? Are all circuits and identified and included in the main switching box. Is EVERY electrical appliance included in the normal circuitry (our well pump was hooked directly to the main service, bypassing the B box and was put a foot underground without grounding or protection.....nearly resulting in two electrocutions).
2) Plumbing; are there any leaks under pressure? Do all of the drains work? Do all of the toilets work? Are there identified clean-outs in case of a problem? Is the water source identified and the main shut-off marked clearly?
3) Has the buyer been made aware of what it will take to obtain electrical service and who to deal with?
4) Has the buyer been made aware of who or what authority they will get their water service from? If from a private party is there a contract establishing terms, cost, and who is responsible for maintaining the water system.
That's a very short list but the beginnings of a document I think could be easily written, agreed to by any reputable contractor and put into service within a very short time.
From the comments on this and other forums there seems to be no lack of individuals who are qualified to assist in building this document and helping establish it's use and qualifying professionals who all parties would agree to use.....as independent contractors responsible to only the party that hires them.
IMHO it would be beneficial to this community to do something like this at the same time more formal options are being worked on.
When I first brought up the subject of trade associations, independent inspectors and the ability of both contractor or buyer to utilize such services what I had in mind was a lot less complicated than what is currently in these discussions.
My thoughts on developing a trade association were that developers, builders, sales agents and interested building professionals could get together and promulgate for a start a short but all inclusive "inspection" report where either people from the selling or buying end of the deal could hire to have done......so when a person built or bought a piece of real property there would be a way to minimize the more blatant situations that happen here daily but seem to have no avenue for reconciliation.
I've listed them before, but I'll try to be brief in mentioning just a few.
1) Is the electrical system operable and free from serious defects, i.e., is it grounded? is run in conduit? has someone checked the entire building to be sure there aren't any open or short circuits? Are all circuits and identified and included in the main switching box. Is EVERY electrical appliance included in the normal circuitry (our well pump was hooked directly to the main service, bypassing the B box and was put a foot underground without grounding or protection.....nearly resulting in two electrocutions).
2) Plumbing; are there any leaks under pressure? Do all of the drains work? Do all of the toilets work? Are there identified clean-outs in case of a problem? Is the water source identified and the main shut-off marked clearly?
3) Has the buyer been made aware of what it will take to obtain electrical service and who to deal with?
4) Has the buyer been made aware of who or what authority they will get their water service from? If from a private party is there a contract establishing terms, cost, and who is responsible for maintaining the water system.
That's a very short list but the beginnings of a document I think could be easily written, agreed to by any reputable contractor and put into service within a very short time.
From the comments on this and other forums there seems to be no lack of individuals who are qualified to assist in building this document and helping establish it's use and qualifying professionals who all parties would agree to use.....as independent contractors responsible to only the party that hires them.
IMHO it would be beneficial to this community to do something like this at the same time more formal options are being worked on.
T.I.G.R.
I agree with what you have proposed and think it could be a big help in reducing the number of unhappy buyers.
It is very important that the builder has to fix the faults in a timely manner. Perhaps part of the construction cost could be put into escrow or similar and held for a reasonable time after completion, or be used to repair faults if the builder has not responded to them.
I agree with what you have proposed and think it could be a big help in reducing the number of unhappy buyers.
It is very important that the builder has to fix the faults in a timely manner. Perhaps part of the construction cost could be put into escrow or similar and held for a reasonable time after completion, or be used to repair faults if the builder has not responded to them.
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malcolminthemiddle
- Guru
- Posts: 611
- Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:56 pm
- Location: Here,there and everywhere
Some observations with reference to SJ’s previous post listing some of the regulations that will be enforced by this new 'body', to help protect the buyers.
Many of these are in fact existing mandatory regulations and therefore following and enforcing them is already a statutory obligation.
Nevertheless, some brief, please note not definitive, personal observations.
Individual land title for each plot. - Many developers do not cut and transfer the land or register the lease until after construction is complete even though the off plan buyer has paid for the land or is paying for the land during the construction phase. Developers have been known to use this as a tool to pressure the buyer into accepting a defective product. The lease registration or transfer of the land, including access to the land, should happen before construction starts. Then if the construction is not completed for any reason, the buyer still has his land and access to it. In addition, the risk of a 3rd party dispute preventing lease registration or land transfer is avoided.
Likewise, to be fair to the Developer, land sale or lease agreements should be tied in with a construction contract to prevent speculation.
Provide Land title searches. - This is the Buyers responsibility and should be carried out independently of the person selling the land.
Building permit for each house. - When known, the application for the Building Permit should always be made in the Buyers name after transfer of the land or registration of the lease. Where the land is being bought or leased from a Developer, issue of the Building Permit should be a pre-condition of payment of the first construction stage payment.
House registration book (Tabien Bahn). - This is a joint responsibility. The Construction Contract should include a clause that receiving the house registration is a pre-condition of payment of the final construction stage payment. This will then make it within the Developer/Builders best interest to ensure the Buyer gets his house registration as quickly as possible. Same can be said for connections to all municipal utilities.
I also understand that on multi house projects, the house registration will only be issued once all houses and infrastructure are complete (I maybe wrong). Relaxing this precondition would be helpful.
Tessabahn approved architects drawings. - The Building Permit is issued on the basis of approved drawings.
Developer will be providing suitable project infrastructure and utilities. - Depositing a mandatory performance bond is a common practice within the construction industry. This bond can be used to police performance to ensure that infrastructure and utilities are completed to the necessary standards. This “Project Bond” could also be used to police other mandatory requirements such as the Building Permit and Land Titles mentioned above. There are cost implications which would inevitably be passed onto the buyer.
Lease contracts that protect the buyer. – There are already numerous lease agreements in circulation. The ones I have seen have all been drawn up by a Lawyer working for the Seller and are therefore bias in favour of the Seller. For instance as I mentioned above, the lease not starting until the construction is finished. What is required is a standardized lease agreement, readily available, to protect not only the Lessor but also the Lessee.
Lease contract is legally registered at land office. – This is a joint responsibility. The Construction Contract should include a clause that registration of the lease at the land department is a pre-condition of payment of the first construction stage payment
Building contract that is fair and not loaded in favour of developer. There are already numerous building contracts in circulation. The standard Thai one I have seen is quite elementary and missing many pertinent clauses. What is required is a standardized, simple building contract to protect not only the Buyer but also the Developer/Contractor.
The contract should be readily available in English and Thai and include drawings, specifications and a Bill of Quantities attached as Appendices to standard terms and conditions. Using Appendices allows the quick and easy modification of a set of contract documents to be project specific.
Suitable defects liability protection. – Every construction contract should include a suitable defects liability clause including sufficient retention held during the defects liability period which can be used to rectify any defects should the Contractor fail to meet his defects obligations.
Facilities of properly qualified/licenced lawyers, architiects, engineers. – Proper accreditation of local firms offering these types of services would be very useful providing the standards of prequalification are fair and representative of all types and sizes of local businesses.
Don't know what they're doing about building regulations/codes of practice, obviously it's a well important one. - Building regulations/codes of practice mean nothing if they are neither followed nor independently checked.
Ditto developers financial status and use of customers payments. – The “Project Bond” could also be used as a type of insurance. Regarding payments, these should be made in stages always be linked to progress in such proportions so that the amount paid is not more than the value of the work completed.
Many of these are in fact existing mandatory regulations and therefore following and enforcing them is already a statutory obligation.
Nevertheless, some brief, please note not definitive, personal observations.
Individual land title for each plot. - Many developers do not cut and transfer the land or register the lease until after construction is complete even though the off plan buyer has paid for the land or is paying for the land during the construction phase. Developers have been known to use this as a tool to pressure the buyer into accepting a defective product. The lease registration or transfer of the land, including access to the land, should happen before construction starts. Then if the construction is not completed for any reason, the buyer still has his land and access to it. In addition, the risk of a 3rd party dispute preventing lease registration or land transfer is avoided.
Likewise, to be fair to the Developer, land sale or lease agreements should be tied in with a construction contract to prevent speculation.
Provide Land title searches. - This is the Buyers responsibility and should be carried out independently of the person selling the land.
Building permit for each house. - When known, the application for the Building Permit should always be made in the Buyers name after transfer of the land or registration of the lease. Where the land is being bought or leased from a Developer, issue of the Building Permit should be a pre-condition of payment of the first construction stage payment.
House registration book (Tabien Bahn). - This is a joint responsibility. The Construction Contract should include a clause that receiving the house registration is a pre-condition of payment of the final construction stage payment. This will then make it within the Developer/Builders best interest to ensure the Buyer gets his house registration as quickly as possible. Same can be said for connections to all municipal utilities.
I also understand that on multi house projects, the house registration will only be issued once all houses and infrastructure are complete (I maybe wrong). Relaxing this precondition would be helpful.
Tessabahn approved architects drawings. - The Building Permit is issued on the basis of approved drawings.
Developer will be providing suitable project infrastructure and utilities. - Depositing a mandatory performance bond is a common practice within the construction industry. This bond can be used to police performance to ensure that infrastructure and utilities are completed to the necessary standards. This “Project Bond” could also be used to police other mandatory requirements such as the Building Permit and Land Titles mentioned above. There are cost implications which would inevitably be passed onto the buyer.
Lease contracts that protect the buyer. – There are already numerous lease agreements in circulation. The ones I have seen have all been drawn up by a Lawyer working for the Seller and are therefore bias in favour of the Seller. For instance as I mentioned above, the lease not starting until the construction is finished. What is required is a standardized lease agreement, readily available, to protect not only the Lessor but also the Lessee.
Lease contract is legally registered at land office. – This is a joint responsibility. The Construction Contract should include a clause that registration of the lease at the land department is a pre-condition of payment of the first construction stage payment
Building contract that is fair and not loaded in favour of developer. There are already numerous building contracts in circulation. The standard Thai one I have seen is quite elementary and missing many pertinent clauses. What is required is a standardized, simple building contract to protect not only the Buyer but also the Developer/Contractor.
The contract should be readily available in English and Thai and include drawings, specifications and a Bill of Quantities attached as Appendices to standard terms and conditions. Using Appendices allows the quick and easy modification of a set of contract documents to be project specific.
Suitable defects liability protection. – Every construction contract should include a suitable defects liability clause including sufficient retention held during the defects liability period which can be used to rectify any defects should the Contractor fail to meet his defects obligations.
Facilities of properly qualified/licenced lawyers, architiects, engineers. – Proper accreditation of local firms offering these types of services would be very useful providing the standards of prequalification are fair and representative of all types and sizes of local businesses.
Don't know what they're doing about building regulations/codes of practice, obviously it's a well important one. - Building regulations/codes of practice mean nothing if they are neither followed nor independently checked.
Ditto developers financial status and use of customers payments. – The “Project Bond” could also be used as a type of insurance. Regarding payments, these should be made in stages always be linked to progress in such proportions so that the amount paid is not more than the value of the work completed.