What has Hua Hin come to?

[SSD]

That's just the nature of life I'm afraid. Some people are honest, some aren't. Doesn't matter if you're in Hua Hin or elsewhere really. Of course that makes it harder on the rest of us but the best way is just to be bloody careful who you do business with.

[redzonerocker]

That's just the nature of life I'm afraid. Some people are honest, some aren't.

thats it in a nutshell! we can easily choose who we deal with, whatever the situation. then the next decision becomes whether we return to do business again.
the increase in hostility within the business community is unfortunately part & parcel of life too. the bigger the town gets, the more competition there is in the market place.
people should be more concerned with the other possible downside to the increased growth of hh.the attraction of criminal activity & there have been a few signs according to some of the posts here on hhad lately & i'm not just referring to farang related incidents.
we can all choose where we take our custom & who we deal with. it is being able to do it in a safe environment that is the most important factor.

[CliveBLive]

[quote="Procyon"]
A few questions to people in business here ...


How many of you know of at least one person who has been shafted on a property deal by a falang realtor?


I'm not in business, just a frequent visitor but I'll have a go at this question.
I know/have heard of many who have been shafted on property. Just hang out at any bar, bring up property and it won't be long before you hear stories of a certain Greek developer who every month has his picture surrounded by local politicians in the only English newspaper in Hua Hin. He's being sued by multiple people at the moment and they can't comment on their cases. A certain Dutch developer gets a lot of mention. There are several Dutch developers but one gets the lion's share of the bad mouthing.

The municipality has done nothing about these people for years even though they know the whole story. That's the main problem. The municipality could shut down most of the crooked/incompetent farang developers by just enforcing their rules. By listening to those who complain. By sending a building inspector to the sites to check the quality of the build. Are they following the engineering plans? DO THEY EVEN HAVE ANY ENGINEERING PLANS? They could save a lot of "stupid" farangs a lot of heart ache not to mention money. But the sad truth seems to be that he who has the biggest bag of money get the cooperation of the authorities and the developers have the cash.

You can say, "let the buyer beware." Put all the responsibility on the buyer. But the deck is stacked againt the buyer and the devil is dealing the cards. The property magazines will print any lie a developer will pay for. Every developer now being sued has pages and pages of glossy adverts in these magazines. The magazines know who are the "bad guy" but their revenue comes from the developers. There is a law about defamation in Thailand that prevents the media from writing negaitve stories about a business. There is no law against printing a lie that is positive about a development, but you cannot print a truth that is negative.

What is needed is "a new sheriff" in town-a new attitude. When the authorities start doing what is done in Britian, Europe and America, enforcing regulations, then most of the crooks will disappear. Until then things will go on as before.

Clive

[Wanderlust]

CliveBLive,
Agree with most of what you are saying there, but you can't expect any publication to check whether the adverts being placed in it are true or not! If they are writing a story about a developer/project then that is a different matter but they are rare. It would be nice if the authorities clamped down on any dodgy businesses, but then again that would pretty much close down a lot of the night market and shops in town (for example) and would require a lot of manpower, which the Thai local and national government cannot afford (or rather the taxpayers can't). The underlying problem to all this is as you say, that money talks, but that isn't only in Thailand, so the best bet is buyer beware, wherever you are.

[Norseman]

There is no law against printing a lie that is positive about a development, but you cannot print a truth that is negative.

Clive

I think that much of what you say is well said and the miserable truth.
The problem with printing the truth is that you most probably will end up in a ditch.
Be careful and talk with a lot of different people before you sign anything.

[Ganymede]

A few questions to people in business here ...


How many of you know of at least one person who has been shafted on a property deal by a falang realtor?


I'm not in business, just a frequent visitor but I'll have a go at this question.
I know/have heard of many who have been shafted on property. Just hang out at any bar, bring up property and it won't be long before you hear stories of a certain Greek developer who every month has his picture surrounded by local politicians in the only English newspaper in Hua Hin. He's being sued by multiple people at the moment and they can't comment on their cases. A certain Dutch developer gets a lot of mention. There are several Dutch developers but one gets the lion's share of the bad mouthing.

The municipality has done nothing about these people for years even though they know the whole story. That's the main problem. The municipality could shut down most of the crooked/incompetent farang developers by just enforcing their rules. By listening to those who complain. By sending a building inspector to the sites to check the quality of the build. Are they following the engineering plans? DO THEY EVEN HAVE ANY ENGINEERING PLANS? They could save a lot of "stupid" farangs a lot of heart ache not to mention money. But the sad truth seems to be that he who has the biggest bag of money get the cooperation of the authorities and the developers have the cash.

You can say, "let the buyer beware." Put all the responsibility on the buyer. But the deck is stacked againt the buyer and the devil is dealing the cards. The property magazines will print any lie a developer will pay for. Every developer now being sued has pages and pages of glossy adverts in these magazines. The magazines know who are the "bad guy" but their revenue comes from the developers. There is a law about defamation in Thailand that prevents the media from writing negaitve stories about a business. There is no law against printing a lie that is positive about a development, but you cannot print a truth that is negative.

What is needed is "a new sheriff" in town-a new attitude. When the authorities start doing what is done in Britian, Europe and America, enforcing regulations, then most of the crooks will disappear. Until then things will go on as before.

Clive

The Greek man you mention owns the newspaper, so it doesn't surprise me that his picture is in it all the time. What better PR machine than your own newspaper?

It is very sad that some of the worst farangs living in the area seem to have the protection of the authorities and will not be investigated.

Maybe it's better not to complain too loudly. Norseman is right - complaining about the wrong people can be bad for ones health sadly.

[sargeant]

what i find is the most disapointing aspect is that people like umwah (with zero buggeral zilch vested interest and with 9X365 day years of experience here) who has consistently tried to get the WHOLE truth out in the light of day get garrotted by people who scream they are honest (and they probably are) but by silencing or belittling they are also giving the wider public the impression that all is hunky dory when it is not and at the same time allowing the bad practices to not be publicised which in turn gives the whole shebang a bad name and thus must impact on their own honest businesses which is not in any way in the honest businesses interest
The honest business people should not be just glad that shady practices are brought to the full glare of publicity they should be advising customers of the future what these shady practices are so that they can spot the conmen and therefore spot the good honest businesses and avoid the crap
and that does not need the crooks to be named just the practices and the way the crooks do business
or am i in my dream world just hallucinating again
Expecting local government do it i am afraid is someone elses dream world

[ozuncle]

Well said Sarge. The more info we have the better. Lets make it hard for the rogues.
As a newbie to HH could someone please pm me the name of this newspaper.
What has happened to that authority set up to investigate farang property disputes?
A toothless tiger?

[Ganymede]

sargeant and ozuncle,

I feel you are thinking too simply about this. The idea that if the good business people "out" the bad ones, then Joe Public will avoid the bad ones and they will be driven out of business is a very nice one, but I don't think it realistic.

What if the bad business people have good high-up contacts in the Thai community? Isn't it more likely that the bad businessman will call on his contacts to make the problem go away? Maybe a discrepancy will then be found in Mr Good Businessmans work permit. Maybe his next visa will be refused. Who knows?

I am not resident in Hua Hin at the present time, but if I were, I think naming and shaming publicly could be a very risky thing to do.

[sargeant]

Ganymede you are up to a point correct but i am not calling for anybody to name anyone or risk themselves what i am saying is expose the practices ie if the guy says A or B be careful if the guy shows you C or d be careful
If the guy asks for this ammount up front if the business man doesnt supply a correct bill reciept or any other red flags any buzz words to avoid for instance
I personally dont know the conmans CV but those that do should be able to warn others just put it down how it went down but do not name or give dates or locations or anything that can id your good self or the conman

when a snake lifts its head up i consider it a bad snake guess what i dont start negotiating with it at all but i would not know that if i had not been told what to look for
Get as much info as you can and then ask lots of questions and then ask some more as ozunc says make it hard for the rogues
dismissing it as simple was a point i made in the post by the way the rogues dont want joe public enlightened do they

[CliveBLive]

[quote="Wanderlust"]CliveBLive,
Agree with most of what you are saying there, but you can't expect any publication to check whether the adverts being placed in it are true or not! If they are writing a story about a developer/project then that is a different matter but they are rare. It would be nice if the authorities clamped down on any dodgy businesses, but then again that would pretty much close down a lot of the night market and shops in town and would require a lot of manpower, which the Thai local and national government cannot afford (or rather the taxpayers can't). The underlying problem to all this is as you say, that money talks, but that isn't only in Thailand, so the best bet [b]is[/b] buyer beware, wherever you are.[/quote]

WL I have to disagree with just about everything you say and add that this mentality is the crux of the problem here.
#1 you can't expect pubs to check the truth of adverts.
first go, true. but when someone like the Greek and Dutchman are know "artful dodgers" then one would expect that in the interests of their own integrity and not wanting to be an accessory to fraud and the ruination of "stupid" farangs retirement dreams, publications would refuse to continue offering these "businessmen" the forum they need to present themselves as legitimate and continue fleecing the unsuspecting punter because he reads these glowing adverts, which are often disguised as "reports" ie not labeled as adverts. I think that is what someone poster meant when he/she said expats out to band together to thwart the bad guys. It's not a dream It can be done. and would benefit everyone.
Who said "I have a dream?" who said those who dont have a dream do bugger all in their lives?

#2 If they are writing a story about a developer/project then that is a different matter but they are rare
That's my whole point. They dont write their own stories. They accept doggerel from developers and present it as a story, year after year. Heaven forbid a property magazine should investigate the Greek or Dutchman about their projects and then interview some dissatisfied customers and ask the developers for their response to the complaints. Something in the "we report you decide" kinda thing. That's what a property mag should do IMHO.

#3 "It would be nice if the authorities clamped down on any dodgy businesses, but then again that would pretty much close down a lot of the night market and shops in town and require a lot of manpower."

This is an example of an argument from absurdity. This is a total deflection of the issue from property development which is a product that runs into the millions of baht to "the night market!" You gotta be kidding WL. Sure no one wants to be ripped off for 50 or a few 100 baht at the night market but we are addressing rip-offs of millions of baht here and a real criminal element. Excuse me but Get real!
As for man power, it would take exactly ONE (1) qualified building inspector to do this job. And I'm sure the municipality can afford it. Build the cost into the building permit. If he/she checked just one building site a week, the whole area would be covered in a matter of months with plenty of time left over to write up the reports and charge the incompetents or criminals and pull their building licenses, if they even have to have such a thing in Thailand.


#4 so the best bet is buyer beware, wherever you are.

What is "the rule of law" for if it is not enforced? Isn't the rule of law the basis of civilization? You seem to say that since the rule of law is circumvented in Thailand by corruption, the best thing to do is accept it, not try to change it, and let each buyer from the night market tee shirt or handbag to the 8 million baht home be aware and on their own. No help expected from the authorites, thank you. You gotta be kidding, mate!
What the hell are they there for. to collect a pay check and sit at a desk?

Some one posted to expect help from the authorities is a dream. some poster signature says, I believe, something like, those who dont dream do bugger all in their lives. another applicable saying is that when good people do nothing evil people will rule.


"Maybe it's better not to complain too loudly. Norseman is right - complaining about the wrong people can be bad for ones health sadly."

No William Wallaces here, No bravehearts, in HH I take it. The operable word above is "ONES" now if there are a dozen well coordinated with the help of a lawyer, (that may be a problem, lawyer I mean) something maybe accomplished. But the bad guys know people live in fear of making waves and so accept their loses. Glad I don't have a dog in this fight and can be a objective observer.

BTW, The Greek and Dutchman have been the subject of all the complaints i seen. Are the British developers any better? Any one have any experience good or bad with a Brit. No names of course, that would be unfair. let the buyer beware! :thumb:

Clive

[Wanderlust]

Clive,
I think the only response I can make to all of that is that I am a realist and you are an optimist; I am also a cynic and have been around long enough, both here and in the UK to know that even with all the laws, law enforcement and the 'right' attitude you will still get people being ripped off for both small and large amounts, still get newspapers and magazines publishing adverts and stories that are not true, and very often without recompense. I don't know where you are from, but your post smacks of the malaise that has spread in the Western world where no one takes responsibility for their own actions any more, and expect the government/local authority to take care of everything when something goes wrong, such as the ridiculous lawsuits that are filed (and won) for things like tripping over a paving stone. If someone buys a property in Thailand without doing any checking first into either the development, developer, lawyer or the laws and regulations that prevail here, then more fool them to be honest. If someone gets ripped off then of course they have the right to let others know about it but the risks of doing so have already been stated, and internet forums like this one will not normally allow any naming and shaming for fear of legal action (or something else) themselves. And as for farangs banding together to get something done, to try and convince the Thai authorities to do something, why on earth should they listen? We are not voters, and by the law of the land are not allowed to own land here anyway, so as far as they are concerned anything bad that happens to us is our own fault, and any implied or direct criticism would not go down very well, and could even lead to your life in paradise being curtailed by a quick call to immigration. I really don't think you have any idea what you would be dealing with here if you tried to pursue the line you suggest. I applaud your sentiments as far as legalities go, but life here and in some other parts of the world isn't just about the letter of the law, and in fact is more about being street smart.

[johnnyk]

Lots of naivete here and some fundamental misunderstanding.
All media are, at the bottom of things, businesses. Bills have to be paid. Just ask Rupert Murdoch or CNN or The NYT or ......
Property magazines are nothing more than vehicles for adverts not editorial content; the article writers are in the main unpaid hobbyists.
This should not be a difficult or foreign concept to grasp.
Such publications are simply not in the business of news or editorial crusades and to rail against them is barking up the wrong tree.
By all means band together if you wish, start your own magazine even, but be careful of printing bar chat.

[turnip]

Don't mention that Dutchman ?

Why not , warn people away from him

What about the poor old ladies and the like ?

The more money he makes the more he wants

Obviously his hyenas who sell the property will tell you how wonderful he is , they're only in it for the money as well

What an easy way to make a living , it's beats working anyday

Sadly , he does have some Brits for his lackies as well as his comapatriots

I wonder why he doesn't go back to the Netherlands?

What about all those unfinished jobs ?

Greed currently rules

[Ganymede]

turnip, do you know any of the "poor old ladies"?

You ask "why doesn't he go back to the Netherlands".

But you also say "The more money he makes the more money he wants" and "Greed currently rules."

I think you have already answered your own question.