UHT Vana Nava Hua Hin City FC 2015

[Big Boy]

Confirmation that the inevitable failure has happened.

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[Geordie Dancer]

As a football match for the neutral yesterdays game was probably quite enjoyable but from a Hua Hin supporters perspective it was shambolic. I can't say it came as any great suprise either. Before kick off my expectations were low in view of a string of very poor performances against poor opposition in recent weeks. Once I found out the twins were both suspended, my mind was made up, we would get beat, and the team duly obliged with the expected defeat. To be fair the teams performance both yesterday and over the past 2 months pales into insignificance compared to the off field goings on, most or all of which still have not been publically explained. Yesterday was the culmination of weeks if not months of mismanagement and as far as I am concerned the buck stops fairly and squarely with those who purport to be running the club.

What has gone on last season or in previous seasons is irrelevant and counts for little, what has been previously achieved and what players have come and gone is equally irrelevant. All that has gone and has little or no bearing on the current campaign. All football clubs must change to evolve, thats the nature of the game.

It is difficult to make an informed objective judgement on what has happened this season particularly over the last two months as the majority of facts surrounding the club are either unknown or unexplained. What can be expressed based on the lack of information put into the public domain and a host of speculation and conjecture are a whole series of questions that remain unanswered, the answers to which contribute largely to an explanation of what has gone wrong this season.

BB has already commented on some of the seasons failings, no manager, the Solano scenario, the late arrivials of the Brazilians and the TOT situation to name but a few. Most are fairly minor in my book and can be put down to naivity in trying to do the right things to make us a "big" club with huge aspirations but failing, and can be dismissed as a lesson to be learnt for the future. The TOT situation, however, was/is completely different and the club has not been the same since it raised its head. We had recover or overcome many of the obstacles created by total mismanagement of the club to sit in a very healthy position for an onslaught on achieving champions league status after beating league leaders Samut Sakhon on their own patch on 12th July. We had a good head coach, had rightly discarded much deadwood, acquired many good players as replacements and overcome the initial bonding issues that these changes brought. The team were playing well and we looked certain to go from strength to strength. Within days everything changed and Thursday 16th July, the day the news of Hua Hins involvement with TOT SC broke, will for me be the defining moment of the season. Despite a promised statement from the club to explain this, none has been made, so we can still only speculate about why this happened. One thing is certain though, Hua Hin have been in freefall ever since.

I am an honest person, I tell it as I see it and I expect the same of others. I don't think that has been done, sometimes unintentionally, but frequently to mislead. This being the case there is nothing more certain than you will be found out in the end.

I have witnessed and have had very worrying stories voiced to me from many people fairly close to the club in recent weeks which are of far more concern than mere team issues and makes me question the assumption and impression that the club is financially well off.

Alledgedly major sponsors are pulling out, not only that, they are pulling out have not handed over one baht in sponsorship money this season. Yes, there have been photos of one million baht cardboard cheques being handed over but that is very different to recieving the cash.

Alledgedly the players and some/all staff have not been paid for two months. As well as many people close to the club telling me this I have witnessed it being talked about by owners, management, coaching staff and players four times quite publically on the training ground recently. No wonder the team are playing so poorly if this is true.

Many on field and training issues simply have not been addressed and we have paid the price. Saturdays starting eleven summed this up with so many players missing. There is no doubt Andre and Lucas are good players but their discipline, antics and lack of professionalism stinks. It does not matter how good they are if they are not on the pitch. Sunday saw them both suspended for the second time this season for cards which generally could have been avoided. Their indiscipline has been their for everyone to see from day one. The club has done nothing to address this.

Players have been over training particularly in terms of pounding out hard miles of running. The impact of this has been really apparent over the last three games. Eight players suffered cramp, muscle strains or pulls in the last home game. Another three suffered last week and Michael Byrne was the main casualty yesterday. These types of injuries are generally picked up because muscles are tired from running and lack of recovery time yet the assistant coach still has the players running themselves daft at training every day. The players are simply not going into games fresh.

Very little to say about yesterday game. Squad players proved they are not good enough. Choi played well and improves week by week. Krungthonburi were a decent side. We could have been four or five up at half time if we had someone who could finish. Our keeper had a nightmare and was at fault for all three goals as well as letting another shot go which hit the post and numerous fumbles.

Where do we go from here? Who knows. I have little faith in whoever is running the club but a massive rebuilding job now beckons. We have many good players and a good coach but until they are left and given support to do their jobs nothing will change. The club needs to make a statement of their intentions. Will they do it? I doubt it. If nothing else the events of the last two months show that the "management" (whoever they are) know very little about running a football club, let alone two.

[Big Boy]

What has gone on last season or in previous seasons is irrelevant and counts for little, what has been previously achieved and what players have come and gone is equally irrelevant. All that has gone and has little or no bearing on the current campaign. All football clubs must change to evolve, thats the nature of the game.

Very true if you only started supporting the team this season. However, when you have been supporting a team for several seasons, and watched that team grow, it was the biggest part of the mis-management saga.

What can be expressed based on the lack of information put into the public domain and a host of speculation and conjecture are a whole series of questions that remain unanswered, the answers to which contribute largely to an explanation of what has gone wrong this season.

As supporters, we have been well and truly played. It has been a case of feast and famine. At the beginning through various channels (some of which I witnessed, and wanted to believe, until I realised it was BS), to now when I don't think we'd be party to a single thing. Of course, it was during the feast that we were hearing the rubbish, and were well and truly taken in.

BB has already commented on some of the seasons failings, no manager, the Solano scenario, the late arrivials of the Brazilians and the TOT situation to name but a few. Most are fairly minor in my book and can be put down to naivity in trying to do the right things to make us a "big" club with huge aspirations but failing, and can be dismissed as a lesson to be learnt for the future.

As a paying supporter and minor sponsor (yes, despite hating what the head honchos have been doing, I've supported the kids again this season, which is what the philosophy of Hua Hin City is about) the Solano farce was huge, leaving us without a manager to plan for and start the season, and we've been playing catch up ever since, Starting the season with an unfit striker was outrageous, and the newbies couldn't hit a barn door. To compound it, more BS - all routes/airlines from Brazil to Thailand were fully booked for the Chinese New Year. How many weeks into the season did it take for us to get a striker? A bit more than minor when you're determined to bring success.

The TOT situation, however, was/is completely different and the club has not been the same since it raised its head.

Unfortunately, this is all speculation, and supporters are being played again. It may all be coincidence. Yes, I'm with you in what you're saying, but we've already suffered a lot of BS, and I think its all a cruel/sick game that they are playing with us,

I am an honest person, I tell it as I see it and I expect the same of others. I don't think that has been done, sometimes unintentionally, but frequently to mislead. This being the case there is nothing more certain than you will be found out in the end.

I'm not doubting your integrity as I'm sure you believe what you're saying. However, after I walked out on a conversation at Chula Longhorn Stadium in total disbelief, I've doubted much of what I've heard from the club.

Again, I'm not doubting what you are saying, but it's very hard to distinguish between rumour, total BS and truth. In my opinion, this entire situation has been orchestrated by the management, and they're loving every bit of the game they're having with us.

I have witnessed and have had very worrying stories voiced to me from many people fairly close to the club in recent weeks which are of far more concern than mere team issues and makes me question the assumption and impression that the club is financially well off.

Alledgedly major sponsors are pulling out, not only that, they are pulling out have not handed over one baht in sponsorship money this season. Yes, there have been photos of one million baht cardboard cheques being handed over but that is very different to recieving the cash.

Alledgedly the players and some/all staff have not been paid for two months. As well as many people close to the club telling me this I have witnessed it being talked about by owners, management, coaching staff and players four times quite publically on the training ground recently. No wonder the team are playing so poorly if this is true.

Many on field and training issues simply have not been addressed and we have paid the price. Saturdays starting eleven summed this up with so many players missing. There is no doubt Andre and Lucas are good players but their discipline, antics and lack of professionalism stinks. It does not matter how good they are if they are not on the pitch. Sunday saw them both suspended for the second time this season for cards which generally could have been avoided. Their indiscipline has been their for everyone to see from day one. The club has done nothing to address this.

Players have been over training particularly in terms of pounding out hard miles of running. The impact of this has been really apparent over the last three games. Eight players suffered cramp, muscle strains or pulls in the last home game. Another three suffered last week and Michael Byrne was the main casualty yesterday. These types of injuries are generally picked up because muscles are tired from running and lack of recovery time yet the assistant coach still has the players running themselves daft at training every day. The players are simply not going into games fresh.

Very little to say about yesterday game. Squad players proved they are not good enough. Choi played well and improves week by week. Krungthonburi were a decent side. We could have been four or five up at half time if we had someone who could finish. Our keeper had a nightmare and was at fault for all three goals as well as letting another shot go which hit the post and numerous fumbles.

Where do we go from here? Who knows. I have little faith in whoever is running the club but a massive rebuilding job now beckons. We have many good players and a good coach but until they are left and given support to do their jobs nothing will change. The club needs to make a statement of their intentions. Will they do it? I doubt it. If nothing else the events of the last two months show that the "management" (whoever they are) know very little about running a football club, let alone two.

[Sabai Sabai]

Not going to talk much on yesterday's game, as has been pointed out, our keeper had a real nightmare. We should have scored a few more with the chances we created. Credit to Krung Tonburi though, they are one of the few, if not the only team that has continued trying to play football after taking the lead against and not resorting to the usual spoiling tactics, as has been pointed out, it was probably a decent game for a neutral. With other results though, the result was irrelevant in the end.

Agree with a lot of GD has just posted, good post. Especially about last season being kind of irrelevant. The fact we won the league and got to Champions League last season certainly does not mean that they would have done the same this season. If(as was the case) new backers come in prepared to invest a lot of money, should we use it to bring in better players? Of course we should. We can argue all day long over which individual is better than the other, however the thinking behind it was correct.

The reasons it hasn't worked out have been clearly stated already, and that's a real shame.

The bit that puzzles me is:

Alledgedly major sponsors are pulling out, not only that, they are pulling out have not handed over one baht in sponsorship money this season. Yes, there have been photos of one million baht cardboard cheques being handed over but that is very different to recieving the cash.

Alledgedly the players and some/all staff have not been paid for two months. As well as many people close to the club telling me this I have witnessed it being talked about by owners, management, coaching staff and players four times quite publically on the training ground recently. No wonder the team are playing so poorly if this is true.

The quote of

I have witnessed it being talked about by owners

really amazes me, you actually heard one of the owners saying they weren't paying wages?

Between Bik Dam, the Intercontinental, Marcus + Ricardo's company and the water park amongst others, I find it really hard to believe that there is a lack of funds at the club. I will stand corrected if true but I think GD has possibly picked up the wrong end of the stick or the person doing the talking was misinformed.......

I suspect we now have a long wait to find out what is going on at the club, I don't think we will learn any more until the TPL is finished which still has a lot of games left. My gut feeling is we will be taking TOT's place next season, be that in the TPL if they survive or league 1 if not.

It's going to be a long couple of months wait....... Possibly the Champions league would not have been important or beneficial to us, but at least it would have provided a distraction of sorts!

[Sabai Sabai]

Unfortunately, this is all speculation, and supporters are being played again.

Sorry BB, I may be picking you up wrong, just to clarify are you suggesting the TOT takeover is just speculation??

The takeover did happen, fact. That is not speculation. It has been confirmed by both clubs. It's what it means going forward that remains unclear.

[Big Boy]

No, the speculation is the lack of information, resulting in much rumour mongering by many supporters (not just us few on here). It's human nature that if nobody says what is happening, people will start making it up. This is the game they are playing with us.

They had their fun spreading BS, and now they're having their fun doing the opposite. Of course, this is pure speculation by me.

Their silence is resulting in people imagining their own versions of the truth. They are playing mind games with us. Unfortunately, I've not heard one good version yet, and you can be sure that somebody has 'guessed' what is really going on.

[Sabai Sabai]

Ok yeah, the silence is very frustrating to say the least, and as you say there will be all sorts of rumours until things are made clear.

I strongly suspect that in this instance their hands are tied somewhat though. I think what is going to be announced is not really appropriate mid-season, hence I think we're going to have to wait until the end of the TPL season.

Of course that is indeed my opinion/speculation on my part as well!

[Big Boy]

Agree with a lot of GD has just posted, good post. Especially about last season being kind of irrelevant. The fact we won the league and got to Champions League last season certainly does not mean that they would have done the same this season.

I'm sure you're both trying to wind me up with this (and succeeding). In the highly unlikely event of somebody like Newcastle winning the Premiership, but failing to win the Champions League, I would be shocked to see wholesale dismissals, and building from scratch. We had a good side, who were not good enough to win the Champions League. I would have expected us to strengthen our already good, proven side, to bridge the gaps.

If(as was the case) new backers come in prepared to invest a lot of money, should we use it to bring in better players? Of course we should. We can argue all day long over which individual is better than the other, however the thinking behind it was correct.

At what cost? If GD's rumours are right, it seems to have alienated existing sponsors. This is exactly what I was getting at when GD made his famous, "I don't believe it" when I suggested sponsors might walk away. However, now that he's heard it elsewhere.................

Seriously, I've seen it all before - Plymouth had become a decent force in the Championship. England failed to win their World Cup bid, and the Japanese sponsors walked. It isn't a nice feeling, and leaves a very nasty taste in your mouth when it happens. If 'rumours' are to be believed, Hua Hin are paying top wages - maybe this angered existing sponsors (did they agree to huge wage bills), and maybe money ran out too fast. Is this why they held the press conference, and handed over new cardboard cheques - to boost the coffers?

All speculation, and while they say nothing, we'll all make up our own versions. MIND GAMES.

[Big Boy]

I strongly suspect that in this instance their hands are tied somewhat though. I think what is going to be announced is not really appropriate mid-season, hence I think we're going to have to wait until the end of the TPL season.

Of course that is indeed my opinion/speculation on my part as well!

The one announcement that they did make was that an explanation would be given to clarify the situation the following week's press conference ........ still waiting. I'm actually wondering if they actually said that, or I heard what I wanted to hear.

[Sabai Sabai]

I'm sure you're both trying to wind me up with this (and succeeding). In the highly unlikely event of somebody like Newcastle winning the Premiership, but failing to win the Champions League, I would be shocked to see wholesale dismissals, and building from scratch. We had a good side, who were not good enough to win the Champions League. I would have expected us to strengthen our already good, proven side, to bridge the gaps.

Certainly not trying to wind you up, although our opinions on this clearly differ. The difference between the hypothetical scenario you've painted and ours is that our goal is not to win the league, it's to win the Champions League and get promoted. The team weren't good enough to do that last year so we changed things. The factors that have prevented us from being successful have been well documented already, had it been done right, bringing in these players of a higher level commanding higher wages would have worked a treat I'm sure. Unfortunately all the mis-management off the field has hindered us big time.

At what cost? If GD's rumours are right, it seems to have alienated existing sponsors. This is exactly what I was getting at when GD made his famous, "I don't believe it" when I suggested sponsors might walk away. However, now that he's heard it elsewhere.................

I'm still firmly in the 'don't believe it' camp. As I said in an earlier post, happy to stand corrected if true, but can't see it.

The one announcement that they did make was that an explanation would be given to clarify the situation the following week's press conference ........ still waiting. I'm actually wondering if they actually said that, or I heard what I wanted to hear.

Yes, a full explanation was promised at the time 'within a week' ..... I guess it's Thai time!

[Big Boy]

Certainly not trying to wind you up, although our opinions on this clearly differ. The difference between the hypothetical scenario you've painted and ours is that our goal is not to win the league, it's to win the Champions League and get promoted. The team weren't good enough to do that last year so we changed things. The factors that have prevented us from being successful have been well documented already, had it been done right, bringing in these players of a higher level commanding higher wages would have worked a treat I'm sure. Unfortunately all the mis-management off the field has hindered us big time.

Unfortunately, you don't get one without the other. Our team this season, for whatever reason, were not good enough for either. Last season, we were half way there - that team should have been supplemented/improved upon, rather than bringing in a new squad. It could actually be argued that we failed because of too many injuries and Phichit's cheating tactics. Our home game with Phichit ended our Champions League campaign.

It's a bit like getting a puncture, so you buy a new car/bike. Total overkill and unnecessary.

[Sabai Sabai]

Unfortunately, you don't get one without the other.

Yeah, indeed. It's a real shame all the well documented off the field problems we've had, otherwise we'd have been flying by now with this squad.

It's a bit like getting a puncture, so you buy a new car/bike. Total overkill and unnecessary.

It's a bit like getting a puncture on your Fiat Punto but then realising that you've actually got enough money to buy a Porsche, so you don't bother mending the puncture, you buy the Porsche.

[Geordie Dancer]

At what cost? If GD's rumours are right, it seems to have alienated existing sponsors. This is exactly what I was getting at when GD made his famous, "I don't believe it" when I suggested sponsors might walk away. However, now that he's heard it elsewhere.................

I must admit to being somewhat mystified by this comment. I can't remember turning into Victor Meldrew or using the Meldrewism. I have scoured my posts and in the context of what is being talked about this is what I actually said in response to a BB comment.

There seems to be a lot of ill thought out planning, which could result in the money men eventually realising the error of their ways, and they could walk, taking their money with them. I'm sorry, but it doesn't add up.

Don't understand. What do you consider to be ill thought out planning? What does not add up?

In the context of that conversation we were talking about player investment and the clubs revenue streams which BB ascerted to be less than 5,000 pounds a season.

There seems to be confusion over the difference between owner and sponsor relationship in the context of the current debate. Owners run the club not sponsors. Who all the current owners are, I am not sure, but I think it is safe to say CGF (whoever they are) and Marcus and Ricardo through their association with that business are involved, CGF own 49% of the club. I would presume Dam has some ownership rights but I am not certain. Beyond that I don't know.

Many sponsors are easier to identify. Intercontinental, Blueport, Vana Nava, Leo, Bangkok Hospital, Market Village, Cool Smile, UHT, etc. Whether any of these have any ownership rights to the club as well as being sponsors, I don't know.

It is very important to make a distinction between owners and sponsors. Owners manage (or mismanage) the club, sponsors have very little or no say in this. Sponsors are sort by the owners to provide a revenue stream.

Sponsors involvement in any football club is largely one of self interest. Their expectation from any involvement is one of brand promotion, advertising, raising their public profile and image rather than a return on investment. You will never get a return on a sponsorship investment from a football club itself. Sponsors hope that they will recoup their investment from the additional revenue brought to their business from their sponsorship exposure.

All football clubs change sponsors regularly. Sponsors will decide to come and go once their additional revenue targets have been achieved or exhausted.

Sponsorship is a club ownership and management issue. No club should be run in a way that it solely relies on a sponsor or its sponsorship revenue and should that sponsor pull out the clubs existance would be put in jepardy. That is a situation owners must manage and good management would.

In the case of Plymouth BB referred to the Japanese who walked as sponsors. If this is the case then any fallout from that falls firmly at the door of the clubs financial mismanagement. If the Japanese were owners and walked then that is an entirely different situation and a much bigger problem to overcome.

In the original context of why I mentioned sponsors pulling out of Hua Hin it was more to illustrate a mismanagement issue than anything else. Yes the loss of money would be a concern but the reasons behind it and mismanagement of the situation are far more important. When Dam is publically berating players on the training ground for talking about money, saying sponsors were pulling out and the clubs situation was now personally costing him money it is obviously of concern to him too. Maybe it was a wind up but if it wasn't he as one of the owners needs to be looking at himself and the other owners to apportion blame for the cause rather than blame the players for the symtoms.

[Big Boy]

OK, not an exact quote, but:

Unbelievable! If there is nothing to complain about lets make it up. It makes me wonder how much some people know or understand about football to make the comments they have made in the last 24 hours.

[Edit] I will comment on the rest, but have to go somewhere just now.

[Big Boy]

In the context of that conversation we were talking about player investment and the clubs revenue streams which BB ascerted to be less than 5,000 pounds a season.

I seem to remember providing the figures based on gate receipts, nothing else.

There seems to be confusion over the difference between owner and sponsor relationship in the context of the current debate. Owners run the club not sponsors. Who all the current owners are, I am not sure, but I think it is safe to say CGF (whoever they are) and Marcus and Ricardo through their association with that business are involved, CGF own 49% of the club. I would presume Dam has some ownership rights but I am not certain. Beyond that I don't know.

They need to work together. Yes, they come and go, but sponsors money is very important. If, as I think you are suggesting, the owners are running the club without involving sponsors, then there's no wonder there is a cash flow problem. if the sponsors are not being involved, why would they provide more cash?

Pure speculation on my part ................... when we re-vamped the team during the mid-season break, we brought in several names, and I believe all newcomers were from higher leagues. I assume there would have been higher wage bills involved. Where would the extra cash come from? Did the owners just assume the sponsors would provide some extra cash? If not, either the owners had to fund the new players themselves (which according to you might not be happening), or go cap in hand to somebody seeking the additional cash. Do you remember early in the season when I was suggesting the club was moving forward based on fantastic enthusiasm, but did not have (as far as I knew) a proper business plan? This combined with poor performances on the football pitch could be making some sponsors re-think their strategy. Try going to any bank and asking for cash based on enthusiasm alone.

It is very important to make a distinction between owners and sponsors. Owners manage (or mismanage) the club, sponsors have very little or no say in this. Sponsors are sort by the owners to provide a revenue stream.

Sponsors involvement in any football club is largely one of self interest. Their expectation from any involvement is one of brand promotion, advertising, raising their public profile and image rather than a return on investment. You will never get a return on a sponsorship investment from a football club itself. Sponsors hope that they will recoup their investment from the additional revenue brought to their business from their sponsorship exposure.

I think you'll find they have a bit more influence than that. They are expecting a successful club that will promote their brand name. If the owners are not producing, of course they will have a say e.g. "You'll do this, or we're out."

All football clubs change sponsors regularly. Sponsors will decide to come and go once their additional revenue targets have been achieved or exhausted.

Again my own reading of the situation: Until now, the club's sponsorship has been more of a family affair, and we often see the nice little man from Vana nava, Blueport etc at matches. He is a shrewd businessman, and if somebody tries to ride roughshod over him, I'd expect him to put them in their place.

Sponsorship is a club ownership and management issue. No club should be run in a way that it solely relies on a sponsor or its sponsorship revenue and should that sponsor pull out the clubs existance would be put in jepardy. That is a situation owners must manage and good management would.

So where else is the money going to come from? Maybe the owners have huge pockets, I don't know. However, costs seem to be getting higher and higher, and you're telling us the players are not getting paid. I'm sorry, but what other conclusion should I draw?

In the case of Plymouth BB referred to the Japanese who walked as sponsors. No, they were part owners, but were also providing the cash for extremely high wages by Championship standards. If this is the case then any fallout from that falls firmly at the door of the clubs financial mismanagement. If the Japanese were owners and walked then that is an entirely different situation and a much bigger problem to overcome. I can see a similarity. The owners have stopped paying wages, and the sponsors aren't playing game either. Speculation is the only tool we have in our locker at the moment, and the longer we have to use it, the more out of control imaginations are going to get. I've said it already, but I'll say it again, MIND GAMES.

In the original context of why I mentioned sponsors pulling out of Hua Hin it was more to illustrate a mismanagement issue than anything else. Yes the loss of money would be a concern but the reasons behind it and mismanagement of the situation are far more important. When Dam is publically berating players on the training ground for talking about money, saying sponsors were pulling out and the clubs situation was now personally costing him money it is obviously of concern to him too. So we're seeing a concerned owner Maybe it was a wind up but if it wasn't he as one of the owners needs to be looking at himself and the other owners to apportion blame for the cause rather than blame the players for the symtoms. Or maybe share the burden with the sponsors by bringing them on board