Expats fall in love with Thailand, but not the language

[VincentD]

Korkenzieher,

VincentD (it would seem inappropriate to use a contraction like KKZ to oh, say VD, ),

Haha. In a way, you're showing your age. VD isn't the main scourge any more, it's taken a back seat to a lot of other scarier stuff. I'm quite used to the smirks I used to get whenever the name was initialised. I just hope nothing was implied when I used a contraction of your name. Certainly no offence was meant.

....and had started learning Bahasa Malay in anticipation (didn't get far though).

I had to learn Malay in school as a second language for ten years. Perhaps it is this grounding that allows me to properly pronounce the'ng' sounds in Thai? The Malay language also has a 'ny' sound that is also a bit of a tongue twister and is not found in the Thai pronunciation..

Interesting historical note there about the Hakka - does that equate to the Baba-Nonya of Malaysia in any way, or is that a different group / caste?

No, the Hakka were a Chinese ethnic group. The Baba-Nyonyas of Singapore/ Malaya were 'Straits-born'; Chinese intermarried with Malays. The food is a fusion of Chinese and Malay cuisine. My brother-in-law is of Nyonya descent.

...to point out that determination & a bit of hard work do pay off. And also that the situation is not specific to Thai.

Yes.

I just think it is rather a shame that so many people fall into that 'it's too hard / I don't need it / can't be bothered' mind set.

I can't help but agree.

Briefly, on the Thai language itself, I find once I have got under the bonnet so to speak, it is much easier than one would expect. There are quite a few shortcuts to learning the character set, and tones and so on and there is a certain intellectual satisfaction to be had as yet another hurdle tumbles away.

I applaud your effort. The best way to learn is with a properly structured course. That way you won't pick up any strange colloquialisms that may cause people to want to categorise you.
A friend recommends Chulalongkorn U. but it's a bit way out for you. His other bit of advice was, 'beware of farang husband hunters masquerading as female Thai language teachers'.

I got a book, 'Easy Thai' by Gordon H. Allison for my mum. It gives you basic pointers on the writtten language as well. I thought was quite well thought-out for a person just beginning to delve into the written language.

[VincentD]

Im also lumped by birth with a Northern English fairly monotonal accent combined with a inbuilt ability to roll vowels like barrels and to drop or strangle consonants out of existance.

Thanks for making me smile this morning

Faced by a language where most of the words mean three or four things depending on how and when they are said,

The Thai phrase 'Mai pen rai' also comes to mind

andawrittenlanguagethatleavesnospacesbetweenwords

Written Thai does not have spaces between the words either.

I can only grin and try my best. I think its funny, and it certainly provides Mrs S with a belly laugh once a day

I think at some time or another we all have to take two steps backward, grin and bear it. It comes with the territory.

[VincentD]

The only real problem is when I mix my Korean (from my first wife) with my Thai. My Thai wife always enjoys giving me a difficult time on that.

It used to be similar whenever I'd go back to Singapore. The maid at Mum's place would talk to me in Malay and I'd inadvertently answer in Thai. After a few days I'd get used to answering in Malay, but the problem would begin all over again when I get back to Thailand, and start replying in Malay

[charlesh]

VincentD - all that talk about the cultural diversity in Malaysia makes my mouth water. IMO the best tucker in the world .
The various Chinese/Malay/Indonesian/Nth Indian/Sth Indian/Parsi/Nonya/Baba foods is a gastronomic kaleidoscope! Thai food palls by comparison.
Yes the Hakkas were also the first people to unbind their womens feet. Hakka braised pork with yam (kao yook) is a great favourite of mine.
Foochow, Hokkien, Cantones and TeoChew yum yum!!!!
Malay is far more easy to learn than Thai also (IMHO)! Was able to get around after a few weeks and a small book. When I attempt Thai they look askance - bloody tones no doubt and grammar in reverse. Even their written words are confusing with conjugated consonants that change sound. Why in the hell would you have symbol for sar R at the end of a word that suddenly is pronounced as a T.
Thai needs to take on board what the Vietnamese have done and Romanize their language and confine the current Sanscript based texts to historical scholars. The Vietnamese will IMO surpass LOS within 20 years in more ways that 1. Just as Malaysia has gone ahead leaps and bounds over the last 30 years when I reckon it was on a par with LOS.

Should book a course at TLC

[huahinsimon]

I find it strange that, so far, all posters have talked about the difficulties of the Thai language but no one has talked about the number one attraction of Thailand, the easyness of LOVE.

HHS

[charlesh]

You need to be more specific HHS ! Love of what kind? I thought I fell in love (of a kind) every time I walked about the bar area in HH and then realised it was an illusion that was clouded by bon homie, self indulgence (like a boy in a cake shop no less) which could be readily realised by a full wallet. But boy can you have some fun.
Have to agree with you however that the LOS is indeed hypnotic to the senses.

[Korkenzieher]

VincentD,

No offence intended or taken - the reference is also slighly tangential to a joke once made by Paul Daniels (a UK magician / performer of the '80s) about Val Doonican (an Irish crooner of the '70s) and I couldnt resist it.

On Thai courses, when I got my ED visa last year I did a 180 hour package at a school called Walen at Times Square in Bangkok. They have their detractors, and their course materials need some work, but their approach is pseudo total immersion - reading only Thai script, and only your own transliteration (ie not learning one of the many systems). It works to a point. That point is when the intellectually curious take a step back & ask 'just what's going on here'?

Giving a list of the sources I use would be getting way off topic, but the actual teaching of Thai by Thais is IMHO deeply flawed, because there is a tendency to try and teach it the way they personally learned it. There appears to be no real developed equivalent of ESL teaching methods yet, but the new breed of Thai schools like Walen are definitely pushing it that way. The availability now of proper learning materials for adults (as opposed to the stacks of, quite frankly useless, books for infant Thais in places like Se-Ed) is growing practically daily, and is helping to demystify the language.

@Charlesh

I certainly don't agree that the language should be Romanized. The failure to produce a single coherent transliteration shows just how flawed that concept is, and is tantamount to sayig 'please, it is too hard - make it easier for me'. Learn what is there. It isn't reasonable to expect the world to bend to your way.

On the other front - economic - I completely agree. Vietnam will pass Thailand sooner or later, but that is less because of Language. If you don't agree, then explain China. Thailand has had the great good fortune to be given, largely courtesy of the fallout from the Vietnam war, 35 years of first mover advantage in South East Asia, and in that time hasn't even managed to upgrade its railway system. Still some of the best roads in the country are those in the north east, built to facilitiate American troop movements. Compare that to the infrastructure build-out currently underway in Vietnam. Thailand will lose out, because Thais are content to be big fish in a small pond, and on the whole, couldn't manage their way out of a paper bag; their free-ride is coming to an end.

[Vital Spark]

Giving a list of the sources I use would be getting way off topic, but the actual teaching of Thai by Thais is IMHO deeply flawed, because there is a tendency to try and teach it the way they personally learned it.

Couldn't agree with you more K! We made several disastrous and unsuccessful attempts at getting one of our Thai colleagues (teachers) to teach us Thai. No lesson plans, no aim for the lesson and wandering off on amazing tangents were both frustrating and, sometimes, amusing. I can remember one lesson when I learnt (and promptly forgot) approximately six different words for intravenous injections. Don't ask... I think the lesson started off with a kind of shopping theme.

One of my current colleagues picked up the language using a CD and a computer. Apparently his accent is good and he puts it down to listening and repeating words via this programme. I'll see if I can find out the name of the programme.

VS

[HuntingTigers]

One of my current colleagues picked up the language using a CD and a computer. Apparently his accent is good and he puts it down to listening and repeating words via this programme. I'll see if I can find out the name of the programme.

VS

That would be very helpful VS, I cannot find a Thai tutor here in NW England.

HT.

[Big Boy]

HT,

Have a look around the Speaking Thai forum. There are several recommendations in there.

[charlesh]

The same way that Latin , ancient Greek, Phoenician, Sumerian, Cuneiform, Mayan, Hieroglyphics, Sanscript etc (ie written and spoken) have virtually disappeared from the main I suspect will also happen here sooner or later and will have to do with "keeping up with the Jones's" and economic success on the world stage.
.
There is a massive attempt in PRC for their people to learn English even in the sticks. Malaysia is another good example and I suspect that proficiency in spoken and written English is a key to International success. The PRC realised the impediments associated with their historical written language and developed PinYin. I gather the Thais did something similar albeit watered down quite a few years ago.

The PRC has a national push to Anglicize the population. Have a "squizz" at their last National congress.

You cannot dismiss the growing success of Vietnam on the world stage and suggest that the Romanised language has nothing to do with it. They readily recognised that their old form was archaic and problematic to a poorly educated and growing population.

You are correct about the various transliteration forms available here (which of the 3) No doubt a strike of the legislative pen, reprint of books and signs over a staged time frame would alleviate that. As you know the spelling may not be correct but a listener should in general be able to glean the meaning from the context!

PS. I don't expect the world nor anybody to bend to my way but just commenting on a path of perhaps least resistance with potentially better outcomes for those that "move with the times". Like you I can also see the beauty of a unique script and language which obviously has cultural significance. I lament that this attitude and intransigence will in part see the LOS fall of the main stage.

[Korkenzieher]

Yes. It makes it easier for us. Period. Japan, Korea, China. They learn English for international usage to sell stuff to us because they know it works. They aren't about to change their whole language and culture at home just to make it easy for visitors.

[Korkenzieher]

HT. PM'ed you with some references.

[Korkenzieher]

CharlesH,

My last response, on re-reading it, seems unnecessarily abrupt but without labouring the point too much, Anglicisation is something really driven by the American cultural paradigm which itself was facilitated by adoption of English through the former British Empire. The rise of Asian cultures and relative diminution of Europen, over time is IMHO inevitable in a post colonial world. Asian harmony may be served over time by moving to a common script or even language, but that will be driven by China as the 300lb gorilla. To get some idea of where their priorities lie, PRC currently sends, as part of a co-operative agreement with Thailand, 1500 Chinese language teachers every year, for 2-3 years each! They are paid by their school, by the Thai government and by the PRC effectively receiving the same as an English teacher in a school - about $1000 a month. I met some of these kids in Ranong and Chumphon. They are top graduates most of whom are already readily conversant in English, Japanese, Mandarin, their home dialect and Thai.

It might interest you to know that their comments on the Thai education system, and standards within it were withering!

[charlesh]

Very well said K.

I would not be in the least surprised. The Chinese I have met and befriended over the years are to be admired for their capacity and tenaciousness. Unfortunately many are "driven" by their parents blind ambitions which seem to have an undesirable effect later on.

For example in Oz my son went to a school which had a significant o/s chinese student group. Some kids were dumped in (as then) $500,00 houses (in good suburbs with good schools) partly subsidised by the government (eg. first home buyers grant) and left with a gold card and phone while they hightailed it back to HK, PRC, Malaysia, Indonesia where they could make more money. Byway of an aside they later sold their homes for a significant property some 4-5 years later and were thus able to pay for the course and set their kid/s up.

The success stories of these dumped kids is very mixed indeed.

Some of these kids had been Chinese school educated and only had maybe 2-3 years basic English experience and after 2 years in OZ were very proficient even in subs like (literature, poetry etc) much to chagrin of their lazy Oz counterparts taking many distinctions/exhibitions and the best places at Uni. When an opportunity is offered take it!

Now Oz is fortunate to have many of these people as professionals in many spheres of life.

Will this happen in Thailand - only time will tell. But I would bet my "lefty" that it won't ha, ha. And IMHO given the cultural aspects and the irrational clinging to what is a basic nationalistic security blanket it won't happen and I am more likely to see a porcine figure fly by my window.

PS I like the thought of a 300lb Chinese Gorilla but I think it will speak and write Chinglish !!