Expats fall in love with Thailand, but not the language

[PeteC]

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/2 ... e-language

[STEVE G]

I think I'll but a little more effort into Thailand before I give Canada a try!

[Randy Cornhole]

France came last, scoring a miserable 2%.

[PeteC]

Here we go, this is exactly how Thai readers get the wrong idea and some over time subsequently develop a dislike for foreigners.

I have 'breaking news' from BKK Post on my cell phone. I just got a beep, beep and this above story as well as others are summarized.

The news alert clearly states," Foreigners love Thailand but HATE the language..." Where in the printed story does it say foreigners HATE the language? Absolutely nowhere!!!

This is why editors are hired and paid the big money. I guess the Bangkok Post doesn't have any, or they're all uneducated xenophobes. Pete

[Nereus]

This is why editors are hired and paid the big money. I guess the Bangkok Post doesn't have any, or they're all uneducated xenophobes. Pete

They have all retired ,Pete. Voluntarily, or otherwise!

[Korkenzieher]

When I lived in Germany, most expats failed to learn German. When I lived in Singapore, most expats refused to learn one of the 3 local languages (Tamil, Malayam, Teo Chow), likewise Austria, Holland, France where I have had stays of more modest length.

I don't think the language barrier is Thailand's problem - or any host country for that matter. I know it is a sweeping generalisation, but like most generalisations basically true - Expats just don't want to learn the language of their hosts, and continue to live on in extended vacation mode.

Personally I am learning Thai much quicker than I learned German!

[hhfarang]

Expats just don't want to learn the language of their hosts, and continue to live on in extended vacation mode.

That's not necessarily true. I have tried to learn Thai, but in the later years of life I believe the language learning cells of the grey matter are not as good as they once were. I can get by shopping or counting, or making polite social vocal gestures but when someone starts spewing Thai full speed at me there is no chance of communicating. I get about one word in ten.

Also some (right brained) people like writers, artists, and in general people who are creative and free thinkers are better at languages than structured (left brained) people like me who are better at math, science, or engineering.

I have tried desperately to learn Arabic, German, and Thai as I lived in those places but alas I reach a point where I can do practical things in the language, but was always far from fluent.

[VincentD]

...When I lived in Singapore, most expats refused to learn one of the 3 local languages (Tamil, Malayam, Teo Chow)

Singapore has four official languages. They are:
English
Malay
Chinese (Mandrin)
Tamil

If you write to the government in any of these languages, thy will reply in the same language.

Malay is the National language (surprised?)

Of the three local languages you quoted, only Tamil is 'official'.
Malayam is a dialect of Indian, as Teochew is a Chinese dialect. You will hear other dialects in frequent use if you know them - Hakka, Cantonese and the like - but never in the media.

In Thailand, Thai is the official, but more often than not you will hear many North-eastern dialects in frequent use.

Depending on the person, any language can be difficult to learn. Hey, I have problems with math!

[Korkenzieher]

OK, Vince, I was working on the premise that most of the expats there will be English native speakers and so didn't include it.

By Hakka, I assume you mean Hokkien, which I had always thought was the dominant dialect, but I was corrected by chinese in Geylang that they mostly spoke Teochow. Mandarin is 'official' sure, but it is in Hong Kong too and it won't get you far there either.

also hhfarang, Personally I am desparately awful with languages, so don't form the impression I am somehow gifted with them. Like you I am much more comfortable with the 'hard' subjects like maths, chemistry etc. I did school french (C grade O level), but was fortunate enough to spend 2 summers in Brittany in the mid 80's and some of it stuck. Most of it has since slipped. I also did 2 years of school Latin and gave it up as soon as I could (for Geology). Never studied German but then found myself in Austria for a year and completely out of my depth. I was in Frankfurt 6 or 7 years before I made any significant effort to learn. Once I started, it took me about 2-3 years to get to the point where I dared use it. Now I can still use it, but it is increasingly rusty.

In Thailand, I made a conscious and deliberate decision not to go down the same route, and to start learning from day 1. It has again taken 2 years to get to the point where I feel confident enough to use any of it at all. I would never describe myself as fluent in anything other than English. The utility value of Thai is far less than any of the other languages I could learn - it isn't even universal in Thailand - however, after putting in a certain amount of effort (and I know I could easily do more), I am pretty confident that it isn't beyond that many people to get to the level that I currently am, and beyond. I certainly would expect, if I was intending to stay here the rest of my days, to continue to make that effort.

[Spitfire]

Good point Vincent D about the variance in dialects and influences of other regional languages, if I remember correctly from previous threads, your Thai is pretty squared away. Some people are simply better at learning languages than others but struggle with some other types of subjects (maths/science etc), it's easy to see the same with the Thais learning English at the schools/colleges etc, some get it and can get by while others are simply baffled. Whether that has anything to do with intrinsic or extrinsic motovational issues is another thing altogether. To be fair, English and Thai are about as unsimilar in everyway as you can get, ie one being a tonal language and the other not, not to mention the script or the descriptions that Thai often employs rather than a single word, so it is understandable that so many have problems, including myself.

[VincentD]

Hi KKZ

No Hakka is very different from Hokkien. And yes, Hokkien is a dominant dialect. Kind of like the way you find the Northeastern dialects being used in Thailand. Dominant, but unofficial...

In HKG I would have thought Cantonese would have been the dominant dialect, but I guess since losing it's status as a Crown colony something would have to change.

Expats in Singapore wouldn't really have a need to learn any other language as English is official and is typically (Tongue-in-cheek here, see addendum*) understood by most. It would be quite different in Thailand as when I got here twenty years ago if you didn't speak/ read the language you'd be quite lost. Though it's changed a lot since then.

* On a trip back to Singapore a Christmas or two ago, I thought I'd do a bit of shopping at Centerpoint on Orchard Road. It's supposedly one of the upper class (read expensive) shopping centers. I was totally amazed at the sales staff (in Robinson's) lack of English or almost any other official language skill. Apparently there has been a wave of mainland Chinese being given an open door into Singapore; even the locals are upset as the Mandrin dialect they speak is very different to the local one. I found this even in the outlying shopping centers.

To go back a bit, the Hakkas were the labourers; I remember way back when they had 'uniforms' - a blue tunic and a red hat shaped like a house - that signified the type of work they did. Erm, did I mention it was the women who were wearing these things? The amahs (domestic maidservants) wore black silk pyjamas and wore long ponytails; the ones with the white tunics took care of the children while the ones with the blue tunics were the cooks. They typically spoke Cantonese (which I have since forgotten).

And yes, if you're wondering, that's where I'm from. Though I've had PR here for years.

[VincentD]

... if I remember correctly from previous threads, your Thai is pretty squared away.

Thanks.

Some people are simply better at learning languages than others but struggle with some other types of subjects (maths/science etc), it's easy to see the same with the Thais learning English at the schools/colleges etc, some get it and can get by while others are simply baffled. Whether that has anything to do with intrinsic or extrinsic motovational issues is another thing altogether.

While I don't totally dismiss the right or left or wrong brain issue , being a 'southpaw' in some ways while being ambidextrous in others may have some bearing on the issue. We all have our strong and weak points.

To be fair, English and Thai are about as unsimilar in everyway as you can get, ie one being a tonal language and the other not, not to mention the script or the descriptions that Thai often employs rather than a single word, so it is understandable that so many have problems, including myself.

That's not entirely true. Both are based on an alphabetical structure, it's just that with Thai the tones themselves are included in the script.
It's a lot more subtle in English - there are actually four tone levels, and these tone levels depend on sentence structure for them to come into play.

A quick example:
Take the word 'Yes'. As a statement this would have a slight fall-off at the end.

Yes.

Now if you add a questionmark at the end

Yes?

The tone changes completely, it starts lower and rises.

Intrigued? I was when I started to learn Thai script and was moonlighting as a part-time unofficial English teacher.

[Korkenzieher]

VincentD (it would seem inappropriate to use a contraction like KKZ to oh, say VD, ),

My experience is based largely on 3 months in Sing in 1994 and another 6 in 2001, and about 3 months in HK also in 1994, and is obviously less extensive than yours. It was my 1994 experiences that directly inspired me coming to Asia at this time, thought I had originally intended to be in Malaysia (Iskandar) and had started learning Bahasa Malay in anticipation (didn't get far though).

Interesting historical note there about the Hakka - does that equate to the Baba-Nonya of Malaysia in any way, or is that a different group / caste?

I guess my main point is simply (inspired by an article which seeks apparently deliberately, to imply that Thai Language is anathema to non Thais), to point out that determination & a bit of hard work do pay off. And also that the situation is not specific to Thai.

I would contend that there is such ongoing improvement in learning resources now for Thai that there is little excuse for not trying. And there are plenty not trying - not just in Thai, but in many other languages / places where expats have chosen to live and work. Of course it doesn't affect me in any way if others choose not to try (actually, it probably benefits me when Thai see I DO try more than my fellow farang), I just think it is rather a shame that so many people fall into that 'it's too hard / I don't need it / can't be bothered' mind set.

Briefly, on the Thai language itself, I find once I have got under the bonnet so to speak, it is much easier than one would expect. There are quite a few shortcuts to learning the character set, and tones and so on and there is a certain intellectual satisfaction to be had as yet another hurdle tumbles away.

[sandman67]

interesting stuff isnt it - how we actually learn stuff. Cognitive psychology is a very very dry subject

when it comes to learning languages I was an ace as a nipper but as an oldish adult Im stumped by Thai. My brain is full to the brim with dumb fact retention, phone numbers, odd drifty in and out bits of French, German, Spanish and Russian, and complex pattern analysis.

Im also lumped by birth with a Northern English fairly monotonal accent combined with a inbuilt ability to roll vowels like barrels and to drop or strangle consonants out of existance.

Faced by a language where most of the words mean three or four things depending on how and when they are said,

andawrittenlanguagethatleavesnospacesbetweenwords

I can only grin and try my best. I think its funny, and it certainly provides Mrs S with a belly laugh once a day

[migrant]

My brain is full to the brim with dumb fact retention, phone numbers, odd drifty in and out bits of French, German, Spanish and Russian, and complex pattern analysis.

My problem exactly! I speak pretty good Spanish (well Mexican Spanish, not so formal) a decent amount of Korean, and bits and pieces of Japanese so I am always mixing words if I'm not careful.

The only real problem is when I mix my Korean (from my first wife) with my Thai. My Thai wife always enjoys giving me a difficult time on that.