Natural Health Forum?

[huahinjim]

A 'Yes' from me.

A separate sub-forum would be helpful. Much is lost within the curent forum and searches don't necessarily come up with appropriate topics. Besides I often read various topics, not just in the Health section, for interest or to improve on my very scant knowledge.

There is much talk in previous posts about remedies/ cures but surely there is more to the topic than someone (qualified or not - and who defines 'qualified'??) giving advice on a.n. others ills?

What about discussions on the use of herbs, fruits, vegetables etc etc and what qualities and benefits they may provide? Much of that would, I think, be more than welcome to help those interested to improve their diets and lifestyles. Some board members may have knowledge of various sites that can be used to give further info or verify any such claims made.

I am sceptical of some of the claims made by some natural health 'experts' but am open to comments from them and from those who may have opposing views. Similarly I've a healthy suspicion of some manufactured drugs especially when I read the info leaflets provided and see that almost every drug can have almost any and every side effect!

I am sure there is a lot to learn from the use of plants etc as an alternative to manufactured drugs just as I am sure that there are many modern manufactured drugs without which some on the board would not be here.

There is plenty of room for all sides to give views and comments in healthy debate.

[Winkie]

I'm a yes too.

I think would be very beneficial to HHAD and to the readers that are interested in such things.

[MrPlum]

Some interesting comments.

Only 'professionals' can give advice
This demand is not applied elsewhere. There are no 'qualified professionals' posting on the existing health section. It would be nice if they were. I'm not sure it's even possible. The natural and alternative medical field is vast.

Is giving 'advice' dangerous?
In some instances yes. The example lindosfan1 gave is a poor one, though, due to ignorance. It was me who raised the issue of possible interactions with drugs and I referred 'guess' to another post where I had covered it in more detail. I also talked at length on the phone to both Chris and his wife (who were desperate to find any way to reduce their medical bills) and made it clear I was not able to offer advice, only information, which they should discuss with their doctor.

There are plenty of examples of what could be construed as 'advice' from others and a quick search came up with this (from one of the moderators), to do with snake bites...

"They cure snakebites in rural areas as follows; a learned person is chewing a bit of betel nut, he then say some magic words and at the same time blows on the wound. After 3 days the patient is cured.
(It worked for my wife when a snake bit her many years ago)."

Clearly no-one is going to try this but if you are nitpicking, you are sure to find fault. Is this 'advice' or simply 'information'? Is Norseman a professional? Should he have insurance before making such statements? There was no disclaimer here and as much as I am interested in native remedies, I certainly would not try it myself. What if someone HAD tried it and died?

There are people who impulsively rush out and try these things, full of enthusiasm, without doing the follow up research. There are others who when it says take 1 tablet twice per day will take 2, thinking 'more is better' when often it is not. Posters should be mindful of this possibility.

Should anyone giving advice be insured?
I don't believe alternative practitioners can obtain insurance simply because most alternative methods are not recognized. There are people working 'under the radar' and they obviously aren't insured.

You could turn this the other way. If a natural method is suggested to someone who, for example, has terminal cancer and no other hope and someone says 'it's crap, don't listen' and they take THAT advice and die. How should this be viewed? Can I sue the cynic for preventing someone who is vulnerable from exploring possible alternatives? Should the cynic be proud of himself for having 'saved' the individual from 'a fate worse than death?' Does the cynic not also need insurance?

What may be made illegal by a corrupt FDA in the U.S. may be perfectly legitimate in another country. The trouble is, the U.S. media and system will not make people aware of other possibilities. They send their execs and their wives to Germany for Cancer treatment but deny the same to their own population by keeping them ignorant.

A 'natural health' forum can perform a very useful service by raising awareness. For some people it actually could be a matter of life and death.

What about the legal aspects?
There are hundreds of thousands of health-related web sites and forums all discussing the same things we are. I believe they meet their legal obligations with a disclaimer. Here's an example... http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikivers ... disclaimer

Should you exercise caution when posting?
IMO absolutely. I have 20 years experience of alternative methods since I've just about tried them all. (I have posted my experience and qualifications previously). I regularly make it clear I am not a Doctor, that you must do your own research and you must consult your doctor (even if he may not know). I don't know anyone else who does this.

It's an absolute given that any member who follows up on information presented here should do so with the participation of their doctor and accepts full responsibility for their decision. Especially if they are seriously ill. Alternative practitioners do not have the protection of the State. If someone is injured or dies they go directly to jail, do not pass go! This is why many will only take well patients and make them better. The sick are too much of a risk.

I do exercise caution when I post. I have started to make my own herbal concoctions, since I don't trust OTC products and mentioned one 'supertonic', which was designed by a master herbalist. I briefly toyed with the idea of making the recipe available but realized there may have been a risk to those on blood thinners and decided against publishing it, even though a simple search online would find it.

Is a separate sub-forum really necessary?
I think it would be useful and informative. My interest is in Naturopathy, Ayurveda, Indian and Thai herbalism, hydrotherapy, energetic medicine such as EFT, Reiki. In fact the whole gamut. Anything that has potential to improve people's health where Allopathic medicine can't. I can't go to other boards outside Thailand since they don't discuss Thai herbs. HHAD has had some useful contributions from members such as Sabai Jai, twinkie, hhf and more. I'm very interested to discover what else they know. Others may also chip in later when they see that it's safe to do so. Having it all in one place will be useful. I and others won't be so tempted to pass comment on the 'orthodox' board and anyone who is seeking a natural solution can ask in the natural board. There will be some crossover, where someone on medications is seeking less risky alternatives but I think two forums can exist harmoniously.

Should posters provide sources?
Well, ok. We should all provide sources. But when Jockey provided link after link, it put people off and I'm sure nobody read them. They cut no ice anyway with cynics, who demand to see a source but aren't interested in the subject at all. Some sources are commercial web sites which you need to approach with caution. It doesn't mean they are wrong but with money involved there is a tendency to only put one side. Likewise, pharma companies.

I think providing sources should be standard practice but where a source isn't provided and people are genuinely interested, they can always ask. It's not difficult.

Won't differences of opinion still remain?
Of course. Cynics will be drawn like moths to a flame. The difference is, with a forum set up specifically for alternative views, they will have less justification for 'flaming'. Constructive criticism is always welcome and offers opportunity to provide further information, (which detractors can't seem to grasp).

What about My Qualifications?
I don't really like this idea of being singled out. I have a lot of knowledge and experience and I'm quite happy to share it. This makes me the natural target of detractors. I have no interest in going back to school for 5 years to obtain a piece of paper to satisfy some old fart on a bar stool who makes threats by pm. Nor anyone else for that matter. If you take issue with anything I write, then argue your case. I'm always ready to change my views if you can persuade me the information I have is incorrect or out of date. If you aren't prepared to do that then don't expect to be taken seriously.

Do Natural Methods Actually Work?
There's an awful lot of rubbish out there. Yet there have already been examples of some members using Apple Cider Vinegar, Colloidal Silver, Hydrogen Peroxide, dietary changes, exercise, Thai herbs and 'detoxing' successfully. I take huahinjim's point about overall healthful living and believe there are many strategies that can be employed to improve health such as diet and exercise.

Some inspirational examples from members would be great.

[hhfarang]

Some inspirational examples from members would be great.

As you know (if you're paying attention) I've been using Apple Cider Vinegar, a supposed cure all (well nearly) for two months now and stopped my two most expensive meds for blood pressure and asthma. I also stepped up my exercise routine and am trying to drink (a bit) less and eat (a bit) better (and less).

So far (knock wood) no asthma attacks, systolic blood pressure sometimes a bit high (stage I) but not as high as before I started taking meds, and I've lost seven pounds.

Could be the ACV or could be the other small lifestyle changes. After a few months of continued success I may stop the ACV as an experiment and see if my BP rises or if I have an asthma attack.

[Khundon1975]

A yes from me as well.

I have always read Mr P's posts on the subject of "alternative medicines" and found them to be very interesting.
I take a huge amount of pills each day to stay alive and welcome any way to reduce the amount, by trying alternative methods.

I don't always agree with Mr P take on Big Pharma and I have posted both positive and negative posts on his subjects but I respect with vigour, his right to post his experiences and thoughts on the subject.

As to litigation, he (Mr P) is very carefull and always states that he is not an expert or a doctor and he is only imparting his experience onto the forum, he is not offering a diagnosis nor recommending a specific cure.

I have said before in answer to some of his posts, we are adults and we must make our own decisions on how best to look after our health. This can only be done from a position of knowledge and facts on the subjects and from which we, as adults, can then make our own decisions.

I welcome a separate forum for these issues, then perhaps the sceptics (of which I'm one but open minded enough to change) can have a serious debate without posters flaming on the subject all the time.

Go for it, I say.

[migrant]

I'm always interested in natural approaches, but I also take what I read and do my own research to see if it's for me.

I have done the Master Cleanse that Mr Plum has described in another thread and do use Korean Red Ginseng for gout.

I voted yes since, if I lose interest, I can just ignore it (but probably wont)

[PeteC]

AP IMPACT: Alternative medicine goes mainstream

By MARILYNN MARCHIONE, AP Medical Writer – Sun Jun 7, 1:52 pm ET

BALTIMORE – At one of the nation's top trauma hospitals, a nurse circles a patient's bed, humming and waving her arms as if shooing evil spirits. Another woman rubs a quartz bowl with a wand, making tunes that mix with the beeping monitors and hissing respirator keeping the man alive.
They are doing Reiki therapy, which claims to heal through invisible energy fields. The anesthesia chief, Dr. Richard Dutton, calls it "mystical mumbo jumbo." Still, he's a fan.
"It's self-hypnosis" that can help patients relax, he said. "If you tell yourself you have less pain, you actually do have less pain."
Alternative medicine has become mainstream. It is finding wider acceptance by doctors, insurers and hospitals like the shock trauma center at the University of Maryland Medical Center. Consumer spending on it in some cases rivals that of traditional health care.
People turn to unconventional therapies and herbal remedies for everything from hot flashes and trouble sleeping to cancer and heart disease. They crave more "care" in their health care. They distrust drug companies and the government. They want natural, safer remedies.
But often, that is not what they get. Government actions and powerful interest groups have left consumers vulnerable to flawed products and misleading marketing.
Dietary supplements do not have to be proved safe or effective before they can be sold. Some contain natural things you might not want, such as lead and arsenic. Some interfere with other things you may be taking, such as birth control pills.
"Herbals are medicines," with good and bad effects, said Bruce Silverglade of the consumer group Center for Science in the Public Interest.
Contrary to their little-guy image, many of these products are made by big businesses. Ingredients and their countries of origin are a mystery to consumers. They are marketed in ways that manipulate emotions, just like ads for hot cars and cool clothes. Some make claims that average people can't parse as proof of effectiveness or blather, like "restores cell-to-cell communication."
Even therapies that may help certain conditions, such as acupuncture, are being touted for uses beyond their evidence.
An Associated Press review of dozens of studies and interviews with more than 100 sources found an underground medical system operating in plain sight, with a different standard than the rest of medical care, and millions of people using it on blind faith.
How did things get this way?
Fifteen years ago, Congress decided to allow dietary and herbal supplements to be sold without federal Food and Drug Administration approval. The number of products soared, from about 4,000 then to well over 40,000 now.
Ten years ago, Congress created a new federal agency to study supplements and unconventional therapies. But more than $2.5 billion of tax-financed research has not found any cures or major treatment advances, aside from certain uses for acupuncture and ginger for chemotherapy-related nausea. If anything, evidence has mounted that many of these pills and therapies lack value.
Yet they are finding ever-wider use:
_Big hospitals and clinics increasingly offer alternative therapies. Many just offer stress reducers like meditation, yoga and massage. But some offer treatments with little or no scientific basis, to patients who are emotionally vulnerable and gravely ill. The Baltimore hospital, for example, is not charging for Reiki but wants to if it can be shown to help. Other hospitals earn fees from treatments such as acupuncture, which insurance does not always cover if the purpose is not sufficiently proven. The giant HMO Kaiser Permanente pays for members to go to a Portland, Ore., doctor who prescribes ayurvedics — traditional herbal remedies from India.
_Some medical schools are teaching future doctors about alternative medicine, sometimes with federal grants. The goal is educating them about what patients are using so they can give evidence-based, nonjudgmental care. But some schools have ties to alternative medicine practitioners and advocates. A University of Minnesota program lets students study nontraditional healing methods at a center in Hawaii supported by a philanthropist fan of such care, though students pay their own travel and living expenses. A private foundation that wants wider inclusion of nontraditional methods sponsors fellowships for hands-on experience at the University of Arizona's Program in Integrative Medicine, headed by well-known advocate Dr. Andrew Weil.
_Health insurers are cutting deals to let alternative medicine providers market supplements and services directly to members. At least one insurer promotes these to members with a discount, perhaps leaving an incorrect impression they are covered services and medically sound. Some insurers steer patients to Internet sellers of supplements, even though patients must pay for these out of pocket. There are networks of alternative medicine providers that contract with big employers, just like HMOs.
A few herbal supplements can directly threaten health. A surprising number do not supply what their labels claim, contain potentially harmful substances like lead, or are laced with hidden versions of prescription drugs.
"In testing, one out of four supplements has a problem," said Dr. Tod Cooperman, president of ConsumerLab.com, an independent company that rates such products.
Even when the ingredients aren't risky, spending money for a product with no proven benefit is no small harm when the economy is bad and people can't afford health insurance or healthy food.
But sometimes the cost is far greater. Cancer patients can lose their only chance of beating the disease by gambling on unproven treatments. People with clogged arteries can suffer a heart attack. Children can be harmed by unproven therapies forced on them by parents who distrust conventional medicine.
Mainstream medicine and prescription drugs have problems, too. Popular drugs such as the painkillers Vioxx and Bextra have been pulled from the market after serious side effects emerged once they were widely used by consumers. But at least there are regulatory systems, guideline-setting groups and watchdog agencies helping to keep traditional medicine in line.
The safety net for alternative medicine is far flimsier.
The latest government survey shows the magnitude of risk: More than a third of Americans use unconventional therapies, including acupuncture, homeopathy, chiropractic, and native or traditional healing methods. These practitioners are largely self-policing, with their own schools and accreditation groups. Some states license certain types, like acupuncturists; others do not.
Tens of millions of Americans take dietary supplements — vitamins, minerals and herbs, ranging from ginseng and selenium to fish oil and zinc, said Steven Mister, president of the Council for Responsible Nutrition, an industry trade group.
"We bristle when people talk about us as if we're just fringe," he said. Supplements are "an insurance policy" if someone doesn't always eat right, he said.
In fact, some are widely recommended by doctors — prenatal vitamins for pregnant women, calcium for older women at risk of osteoporosis, and fish oil for some heart patients, for example. These uses are generally thought to be safe, although independent testing has found quality problems and occasional safety concerns with specific products, such as too much or too little of a vitamin.
Some studies suggest that vitamin deficiencies can raise the risk of disease. But it is not clear that taking supplements will fix that, and research has found hints of harm, said Dr. Jeffrey White, complementary and alternative medicine chief at the National Cancer Institute. A doctor with a big interest in nutrition, he sees the field as "an area of opportunity" that deserves serious study.
So does Dr. Josephine Briggs, director of the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine, the federal agency Congress created a decade ago.
"Most patients are not treated very satisfactorily," Briggs said. "If we had highly effective, satisfactory conventional treatment we probably wouldn't have as much need for these other strategies and as much public interest in them."
Even critics of alternative medicine providers understand their appeal.
"They give you a lot of time. They treat you like someone special," said R. Barker Bausell, a University of Maryland biostatistician who wrote "Snake Oil Science," a book about flawed research in the field.
That is why Dr. Mitchell Gaynor, a cancer specialist at the Weill-Cornell Medical Center in New York, said he includes nutrition testing and counseling, meditation and relaxation techniques in his treatment, though not everyone would agree with some of the things he recommends.
"You do have people who will say 'chemotherapy is just poison,'" said Gaynor, who tells them he doesn't agree. He'll say: "Cancer takes decades to develop, so you're not going to be able to think that all of a sudden you're going to change your diet or do meditation (and cure it). You need to treat it medically. You can still do things to make your diet better. You can still do meditation to reduce your stress."
Once their fears and feelings are acknowledged, most patients "will do the right thing, do everything they can to save their life," Gaynor said.
Many people buy supplements to treat life's little miseries — trouble falling asleep, menopausal hot flashes, memory lapses, the need to lose weight, sexual problems.
The Dietary Supplement and Health Education Act of 1994 exempted such products from needing FDA approval or proof of safety or effectiveness before they go on sale.
"That has resulted in consumers wasting billions of dollars on products of either no or dubious benefit," said Silverglade of the public interest group.
Many hope that President Barack Obama's administration will take a new look. In the meantime, some outlandish claims are drawing a backlash. The industry has stepped up self-policing — the Council for Responsible Nutrition hired a lawyer to work with the Council of Better Business Bureaus and file complaints against problem sellers.
"We certainly don't think this is a huge problem in the industry," Mister said, but he acknowledges occasionally seeing infomercials "that promise the world."
"The outliers were making the public feel that this entire industry was just snake oil and that there weren't any legitimate products," said Andrea Levine, ad division chief for the business bureaus.
The FDA just issued its first guidelines for good manufacturing practices, aimed at improving supplement safety. Consumer groups say the rules don't go far enough — for example, they don't set limits on contaminants like lead and arsenic — but they do give the FDA more leverage after problems come to light.
The Federal Trade Commission is filing more complaints about deceptive marketing. One of the largest settlements occurred last August — $30 million from the makers of Airborne, a product marketed with a folksy "invented by a teacher" slogan that claimed to ward off germs spread through the air.
People need to keep a healthy skepticism about that magical marketing term "natural," said Kathy Allen, a dietitian at Moffitt Cancer Center in Tampa, Fla.
The truth is, supplements lack proof of safety or benefit. Asked to take a drug under those terms, "most of us would say 'no,'" Allen said. "When it says 'natural,' the perception is there is no harm. And that is just not true."

[Sabai Jai]

I voted yes to this

I have little to add as it appears to have all been said already.

Health is our greatest asset - let's promote it.

Yes, a very complicated subject - but how can the individual make assesments/ decisions with out information - and an open forum for disscussion?

Regards sabai Jai

[twiggy]

I did't vote, because I don't use any medicine. thou if i¨had't started a new lifestye 3 years ago, today I would have been obese or at least overweigth.

Sure I would have needed medicine for high bloodpressure, diabetetes B, had bad knees or maybe also asthma etc. etc. today.

Thanks to someone who asked me; Why are you so fat?, I took a good look in the mirror, and agreed, and started a fight to get my normal shape back. That took me 6 mounth, and have kept my normal weight ever since, but have also changed my eatinghabits.

I belive in naturmedicine, my sister is a doc in that matter, but what I will say: if you eat a lot of medicine, natural or whatever, and do not have a healty diet and do some form of exercise, IMO you start in the wrong end.

I live in HH, and I'm lucky to have a gym. and a nice pool in my condo, and use my pushbike if I don't need to go to BBK. {or to areas were those biting dogs stay] .

As new in this forum, I don't know if this has beed polled before, but if not, I suggest Mr Plum set up a poll like:

1. Are you overweight
2. Do you want to lose some pounds
3. Web.sides were you can get help and inspiration
4. Plases here in HH, were to go to gym. and to swim.

There are for sure many other things to do. Walk on the beach etc. exerecise in your own home.

This was well of the topic, but at the end I splash some more fuel on the fire....I went to an event in a restaurant 2 years ago....have never seen some many obesety people in one room, don't know if any of you were there, but maybe this can be a new topic.

Twiggy

[sargeant]

I am puzzled naye confused even i have been watching this thread and wondering why anyone voted yes, no or undecided
The question to be answered was would you like a natural health forum on HHAD
As far as i am aware this is HHAD
The second point is this thread title is yes you guessed it "natural health forum"

I think i wont bother voting....... for some silly old fart reason i cant see the point

[richard]

It's a yes from me

As a DVT sufferer for 5 years and totally dependent on warfarin I decided to try a transition from warfarin to herbal solutions instead

I am now almost completely off warfarin and any other medication except chang and the likes

The transition took 2 months and even my doctor raised his eyebrows when I spilled the beans although he would not comment

I did this after a chat with Mr Plum and a friend in the UK that does yoga/detox/herbal lessons

May not work for everybody but I think it's worth publishing for those who may want to try it

[buksida]

MrP would you be kind enough to post the recipe for a natural ingredient effective hangover cure? I'm sure such things exist and would like to try one next time I get wasted and don't want to spend the next 18 hours on the couch. Something that I can print off, laminate and stick to the side of the fridge for emergencies!

[Sabai Jai]

Dear Buksida

I can think of a natural hangover prevention.....?


Get well soon

Regards Sabai Jai

[niggle]

Margaret you wrote
"I trust that MrPlum probably knows more about natural medicine than anyone I've ever known before, so I appreciate his willingness to share his knowledge with those of us who are interested. If not interested, one could just ignore that particular forum."
May I suggest that Mr Plum appears to know more about everything than anyone else.
And would I be surprised if his advice is to enrol on one of his carrot juice and yga courses - I think not
And by the way, I voted yes

[MrPlum]

May I suggest that Mr Plum appears to know more about everything than anyone else.
And would I be surprised if his advice is to enrol on one of his carrot juice and yga courses - I think not
And by the way, I voted yes

Damn. Where's the love?

If you have a juicer, a good drink is Apple, Carrot, Beetroot and fresh Ginger. If you drink carrot juice alone mix it 50/50 with water.

Another fab 'smoothie' drink is Banana, Pineapple and Black Sesame seeds, I sometimes add a tablespoon of cold-pressed Olive Oil. Don't forget the umbrella.

Mango 'Lassi' is cooling and good for the digestion.

Fresh Sugar Cane Juice is very refreshing on a hot day.

Not sure about a hangover drink. When I used to trip the light fantastic, I always drank water before going to bed. Stopped the dehydration headaches at least. Otherwise 'hair of the dog'.

Update: Just checked and found this site which made me chortle... http://www.rupissed.com/hangovercures.html

No surprise Niggle. I would always recommend Yoga. Great way to stay flexible and to learn to relax. Beginners are welcome, since they make me 'appear' as if I know more than anyone else.