So, what's good about this place?

[PeteC]

Morale is sinking fast on here due to the current visa law changes and confusion surrounding that issue.

Come on, tell me what other countries of substance have as lenient a policy as Thailand at present? USA, EU, UK, Japan, Australia? Forget it.
Visa on arrival in those places and others are for their own immediate neighbors and allies only. Yes, Malaysia and Cambodia seem to be ready to pick Thailand's bones, but that seems to me to be a backdoor approach to welcoming foreigners.

Thailand was the only country in the region to open up to tourists and foreign residents decades ago because they didn't have much else to offer and saw the opportunity. They did this, and did not make that privilage reciprocal. Can a Thai go VOA to anywhere EU, UK or USA...no. What happened here? Thailand got good tourists and residents, but they also got the scum of the world trying to hide out and institute a behaviour which would never be acceptable in the person's home country.

Times change and Thailand is becoming more sophisticated and economically powerful. We shouldn't be surprised with changes. Their problem is they seem to release or leak info before the actual rules are clearly defined. That just causes confusion.

This is still a great place to reside for a multitude of reasons, even if we have to put up with bumps in the road from time to time.

Please list some of these reasons for being here instead of where we came from. I may chime in later but won't start it off. Pete

[Jaime]

Come on, tell me what other countries of substance have as lenient a policy as Thailand at present? USA, EU, UK, Japan, Australia? Forget it.
Visa on arrival in those places and others are for their own immediate neighbors and allies only.

I'll 'chime in' on this before the ball gets rolling on your question Pete!

The difference, and the reason why people are confused and/or angry about the residency situation in LoS, is that although VOA may not be possible for the countries you mention, once you are in you can buy land, engage in any type of business, qualify for residency and citizenship, vote and generally play an active part in that society, instead of being excluded, edged to the periphery and treated in a restrictive and generally demeaning manner. Have a debate on what's good about Thailand by all means but surely not by reference to the immigration 'policy'!

[Big Boy]

For me, my prime reason for wanting to live in Thailand is simple - its the home of my 2 beautiful grandchildren.

Other major reasons include the climate and value for money (compared to the UK). I know that I can survive on my pension from the age of 60 in the UK. In Thailand, I can retire now at the age of 50, and have a good standard of living.

[caller]

Interesting thread - but easy to move on to elsewhere, as Jaime understandably did - but I'm not sure comparisons can be made?

Once into the UK, not all have the opportunities as outlined by Jaime, at least not without a qualifying period first. But try telling a newly qualified UK Doctor that!

Most to the UK are economic migrants, genuinely, or are there to rip the system off to make money. Those going to LOS - genuinely - as BB and others have said, want to enjoy what they have earnt elsewhere and contribute to the local economy by spending.

Up to now the Thais have taken a cavalier approach ro such insurgents - just as successive UK Govts have done - the Tories certainly did and so have Labour until the clamour of protest gets to much or they cock up like they have with Eastern Europe.

Just hope, like BB, I will get the opportunity to spend more time in LOS?

[hogus]

Pete, you're true! Times changes!

Thailand is going to lose the monopoly of being an exotic, inexpensive holiday-country to his neighbors, which have also a growing economy.
Instead of carrying out sensible and necessary reforms in view of the immigration policy, TH seems to become more and more restrictive.
Not everybody is willing to marry a Thai-citizen, make business in TH or is older than 50 years to be qualified for a proper long-term-visa.
I know many people (myself included), which have more money than an average foreigner pensioner, who's retired in TH.
If you're in the <50+not married+not want to work-boat, you’ll be more and more forced to search for “differentâ€

[PeteC]

All good replies and food for further thought. It made me sit here and think what country in Asia allows easy residency, citizenship and land ownership? I don't think any allow citizenship except in some rare cases, and after much consideration, similar to Thailands rules on permanent residency and citizenship for foreigners.

I can relate to Singapore concerning easy residency, but only with a work permit. After that is gone, you are back to the normal VOA's there or application for some other form of tourist visa. I think you can buy a home in Singapore but not sure what the restrictions/qualifications are.

The new residency deal in Malaysia I think is an XX year leasehold, not outright ownership.

Cambodia is too soon to tell. I've read there are no firm rules yet on foreigners buying homes/land.

Korea, China, Japan, Taiwan, Indonesia, Brunei, Laos, Burma, Vietnam I think we can forget all categories mentioned above.

Philippines, I am not sure except to say they have some special deals for Americans due to the history and millions of their people living in the USA. They very well may have special deals for other countries as well?

So maybe Caller is correct, you can't really make a comparison between the West and Asia, any of it. It's like comparing apples and oranges. All of our Western societies are mixed races and have been for a long time. Asia is not and seems to try to avoid it at all costs. Desire to maintain racial purity perhaps, or fear of being taken over by the "invaders", economically and socially, maybe both and more.

Given this stream of thought, I don't think we'll ever see Asian and Western immmigration laws and residency privilages being equal.

In Thailand though, it is very evident that the government seems to be trying to protect it's people through the institution of laws restrictive to foreigners, instead of educating them properly to enable them to compete with foreigners and foreign countries. That form of government I don't like at all. As I've said before, a government should represent the people, not coddle them, protect them, and care for them like nannies. That form of government is closer to pure Marxism than it is to a democracy.

I'm way off thread with my own thread, but perhaps important to talk about these issues to understand what we're experiencing here now. Pete

[pookie]

You know?........it must be like clinging to the outside of a lifeboat in shark infested waters for those falangs living in LOS at the moment.
Just waiting for the clamp of teeth on the leg and down you go !!!!!
What with the reaffirmation/tightening up of the property laws, and now this latest visa debacle is certainly giving me food for thought as to where i will live as i make my plans to retire.

One thing thats nagging away in the back of my mind, though, is i seem to recall a time in recent history (OK, well perhaps 50-60 years ago) when Thailand not only shunned foreign investment, but actually nationalised the foriegn companies, and gave them little notice of doing so
Like i say, its only something i heard a LONG time ago, and is probably a load of old cobblers, but, can anyone confirm/refute this?

Pookie

[hogus]

Well, Caller, like you I think it's an interesting thread.
I can't give a lot of information about all countries Pete mentioned above, but may be some helpful information can be added from my side.

Philippines, offers you different kind of proper long-term-visa.
The newest is the so-called SRRV (Special Resident Retiree’s Visa).
It's a little bit like the Thai Elite Card, and offers you many useful benefits.
The big difference is, you don't need to buy it for 1 mio, and never ever see your money again… you just have to show US$ time-deposits in a Phil-account.
Your qualification starts already with the age of 35 years.
It would be too much to describe everything...just take a look to the government website by yourself.
http://www.plra.gov.ph/main/index.php?pid=2&lang=1
It's worth to have a look in my eyes...and please keep in mind, that the life-costs are till 30% cheaper more as in TH, if you have Euros, US$ or Pound Sterling.

Cambodia has same restrictive laws in view of buying land & houses as the Phils or TH, but they handle the Immigration-regulations more comfortable and it’s also not expensive.
You can get a normal tourist-visa by Internet already http://evisa.mfaic.gov.kh/index.php?version=eng
or on arrival.
There isn't any limitation how often you are coming to Cambodia with this kind of visa.
For a long-stay it's better to apply for a business-visa in advance.
It costs just 5 US$ more than a tourist-visa but can be extended till one year (multiple-entry).
No age-limits, no deposits, just pay the fee in Phnom Penh Immigration Division....it's less than US $250/per year.
There aren't many official websites in the moment, but a look to the following link could confirm you the most regulations.
http://www.embassyofcambodia.org.nz/Visaregulation.htm

Malaysia, offers a special program for foreigners, which have the wish to stay for long time.
It's called "Malaysia My Second Home"!
There is no age-limit, too!
Applicants and their spouses, who are both over 50 years have to show fixed deposit of (let us say it in Baht) not less than 1.5 mio
Singles above 50 years have to show not less than 1 mio Baht.
For married or single applicants below 50 years it's the same, but a monthly income from not less than 70,000 Baht is required, too.
The Visa (Social visit pass) is valid for 5 years, and can be extended always for further 5 years.
You can't make any business under this program, BUT you're allowed to purchase 2 units of residential properties of value not less than 1.5 mio Baht in your name!
For more information have a look to the following link, please.
http://mm2h.motour.gov.my/cms/index.php?n=en

My personal resume:

Cambodia is great for an uncomplicated long-stay!
The Phils offers you a very inexpensive life, with great standard.
Malaysia is in the moment the best for those that want to invest and dream about an own house(s) in Southeast-Asia.

What TH offers us (compare to these 3 countries) in the moment?
Now I'll close and start to think deep about my own question!
Hopefully I'll find a good answer!

[Jaime]

One thing thats nagging away in the back of my mind, though, is i seem to recall a time in recent history (OK, well perhaps 50-60 years ago) when Thailand not only shunned foreign investment, but actually nationalised the foriegn companies, and gave them little notice of doing so
Like i say, its only something i heard a LONG time ago, and is probably a load of old cobblers, but, can anyone confirm/refute this?

Unfortunately I can't confirm or refute this but my opinion is that stuff like this could happen anywhere in SE Asia at any time, or it may not happen ever again. I believe the politics of the region to be inherently unstable and populist, and it's all part of the risk/excitement/interest of investing or living in the third/developing world.

There - excitement or unpredictability! That's one of the good things if you like life on a knife edge!

[PeteC]

Good info and valuable links, Hogus, thanks. If I wasn't committed here with spouse and child, I think I would be exploring also. To take a Thai woman to settle in another Asian country though is a tough thing to do. Maybe harder than getting them acclimated to life in the West.

Of all the places you mention, I spent the most time in the Philippines, but back in the 80's. Indeed a paradise but you had to be much more careful concerning personal safety there than here. Very high robbery rate and no hesitation on the part of the thugs to use force and weapons. Hopefully that situation has improved. I also despise Philippine food. I can't even describe it. Perhaps why we see no or few Philippine restaurants throughout the world?

So, one has several things to ponder if making a choice between the three.

Malaysia - conservative, probably not much nightlife, peaceful, safe. Close to LOS if a fix is needed. Spoken English probably better than in LOS. Living costs probably higher than Thailand. Food from everywhere available.

Cambodia - Safety questionable, English not widely spoken, cheaper than Thailand, up and coming nightlife. Relatively peaceful and similar to Thailand 30 years ago. Close to LOS. Food basically Thai/Lao/Cambodian style.

Philippines - 30% less costly than LOS as you mention. Everyone speaks English. Booming nightlife, probably equal to or more than Thailand now. Possible safety concerns. Local food to be avoided. Western food available BUT no English breakfasts. Not easy to make quick trips to Thailand. Pristine beaches and islands, hundreds of them, far surpasses Thailand in that regard.

It's a tough decision. Maybe the over 50 set best off in Malaysia. 35 to 50 in Cambodia and under 35 party hardy in the Philippines, get married and raise a family. They love big families there.

It will be interesting to see if anyone takes one of these big steps and if so, how life there develops for them. Hopefully they will remainmembers of HHAD and lets everyone know. Pete

[hogus]

Pete, the situation hasn't improved so much in the Phils.
The criminal rate seems to be much higher as in Malaysia or TH.
There aren’t any 7/11 shops without heavy armed guards in big cities, and even ATMs are guarded with machine-gun guys at central places.
On the other side I never had the feeling to be unsafe, or that the security controls are disturbing too much.
The guards were very polite and never bothered around.
Beware of the street kids!!!!

Cambodian cities are safe...but I don't know about the countryside.

It won’t be difficult to find everywhere in SEA better English-speaking natives as in TH.

Steady relationships, being married etc. will be the biggest problem for those who are staying for long-time in TH already and want/or are forced by Thai-law to move.
Also investors will have a problem.

Let’s see what’s going on, right?
May be the situation calms down again !?

[Jaime]

Good info and valuable links, Hogus, thanks. If I wasn't committed here with spouse and child, I think I would be exploring also. To take a Thai woman to settle in another Asian country though is a tough thing to do.

I think you are absolutely right Pete. A couple of salaried opportunities have cropped up for me in the past couple of years in Vietnam and China. We discussed things and obviously the proximity to Thailand and her family was a big plus but when it came down to it, Mrs J just didn't like the idea of living anywhere in Asia outside of Thailand. As you state, she would much rather live in UK, US, Oz, Canada etc and even Spain, Netherlands, France, Italy before one of Thailand's Asian neighbours.

[PeteC]

Good info and valuable links, Hogus, thanks. If I wasn't committed here with spouse and child, I think I would be exploring also. To take a Thai woman to settle in another Asian country though is a tough thing to do.

I think you are absolutely right Pete. A couple of salaried opportunities have cropped up for me in the past couple of years in Vietnam and China. We discussed things and obviously the proximity to Thailand and her family was a big plus but when it came down to it, Mrs J just didn't like the idea of living anywhere in Asia outside of Thailand. As you state, she would much rather live in UK, US, Oz, Canada etc and even Spain, Netherlands, France, Italy before one of Thailand's Asian neighbours.

Yes, unfortunately her life would be hell. She would need to try to learn yet another foreign language and the other local Asian women, for the most part, would not treat her kindly. She would sit at home and wait for you to return each day, and not much else.

I've seen this happen to Koreans in Japan, which is an extreme example, but I've just seen it happen to a Philappina girl here in Thailand. I've also seen it happen to Thai girls in Singapore and these were not bar girls but wives. Pete