737 Max banned from Singapore airspace, grounded worldwide

[HHTel]

The US regulator, which is actually involved in the investigation, says it has made its decision as a result of new evidence collected at the site and analysed today - as well as satellite data.

Pilots in the US had complained late last year about problems controlling the Boeing 737 Max 8 during take-off.

They reported difficulties similar to those that contributed to the fatal Lion Air crash in Indonesia in October.

Documents reveal that pilots flying last November reported engaging autopilot only for the aircraft's nose to pitch lower, prompting the warning system to exclaim: "Don't sink! Don't sink!"

Two US pilots reported separate incidents involving the 737 Max's automatic anti-stalling system in November.

The feature, which was new to the 737 Max family, is designed to keep the plane from stalling.

The system prevents the aircraft from pointing upwards at too high an angle, where it could lose its lift.

However, according to filings with the US Aviation Safety Reporting System, which pilots use to disclose information anonymously, it appeared to force the nose down.

In both cases, pilots were forced to intervene to stop the plane from descending.

I agree with caller. I doubt whether these planes will be taking off anywhere soon.

Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47562727

[Nereus]

US, Canada ground all 737 MAX

https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/genera ... ll-737-max

WASHINGTON: President Donald Trump issued an emergency order Wednesday grounding all Boeing 737 Max 8 and Max 9 aircraft in the wake of a crash of an Ethiopian airliner that killed 157 people.

It was a reversal for the US after federal aviation regulators had maintained it had no data to show the jets are unsafe, and came hours after Canada joined some 40 other countries in barring the Max 8 and 9 from its airspace.

Canada said satellite tracking data showed possible but unproved similarities between the Ethiopian Airlines crash and a previous crash of a 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia five months ago.

The US also grounded the larger version of the plane, the Max 9. That was hours after Thailand also ordered all three Max 9 aircraft flown by Thai Lion Air to be grounded.

The Federal Aviation Administration said "new information from the wreckage" of the Ethiopia crash, along with satellite-based tracking of the flight path, indicated some similarities with a Lion Air crash in the Java Sea that killed 187 people in October.

The information "warrants further investigation of the possibility of a shared cause for the two incidents that needs to be better understood and addressed," the FAA said in a statement.

Trump, who had received assurances Monday from Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg that the Max aircraft was sound, said the safety of the American people is of "paramount concern."

Trump said any plane currently in the air will go to its destination and then be grounded, adding that pilots and airlines have been notified.

Boeing issued a statement saying it supported the FAA's decision even though it "continues to have full confidence in the safety of the 737 MAX." The company also said it had itself recommended the suspension of the Max fleet after consultations with the FAA and the National Transportation Safety Board.

"We are supporting this proactive step out of an abundance of caution," Boeing said.

Canadian Transport Minister Marc Garneau said a comparison of vertical fluctuations found a "similar profile" between the Ethiopian Airlines crash and the Lion Air crash. Garneau, a former astronaut who flew in the space shuttle, emphasised that the data is not conclusive but crossed a threshold that prompted Canada to bar the Max 8.

He said the new information indicated that the Ethiopian Airline jet's automatic system kicked in to force the nose of the aircraft down after computer software determined it was too high. He said that in the case of the Lion Air crash off Indonesia, the pilot fought against computer software that wanted to drop the nose of the plane.

"So, if we look at the profile, there are vertical fluctuations, in the vertical profile of the aircraft and there were similarities in what we saw," Garneau said. "But I would repeat once again. This is not the proof that is the same root problem. It could be something else."

Canada lost 18 of its citizens in Sunday's crash, the second highest number after Kenya. A Canadian family of six were among the dead.

Meanwhile, Ethiopian Airlines said Wednesday that flight recorders from the jet that crashed will be sent to Europe for analysis, but it was unclear where. Some aviation experts have warned that finding answers in the crash could take months.

[handdrummer]

US pilots have over 700 hrs. flying time.

So when a US pilot flies his first flight in a for him/her new aeroplane model he/she already has over 700 hours of flying time in that particular model. The USA is indeed fantastic...

In that model, I don't know about others.

[handdrummer]

In other airplane news, Trump said, "Airplanes are too complicated to fly."

[J.J.B.]

US pilots have over 700 hrs. flying time.

So when a US pilot flies his first flight in a for him/her new aeroplane model he/she already has over 700 hours of flying time in that particular model. The USA is indeed fantastic...

In that model, I don't know about others.

To fly a commercial jet for a US airline a pilot would need an unfrozen ATPL, which is only granted once 1,500h have been reached with a CPL and then all exams, Class 1 medical are passed in time etc. Type ratings for a 737 require around 50h, at least half of which is in a simulator, and differences training from similar aircraft types requires even less.

It stands to reason that many US pilots will, at some point, have far less than 700h on any single type. It’s common practice for pilots to use a shared rating among different aircraft of the same manufacturer’s series (e.g. B757/B777/B787; A319/A320/A321) and total them up. Hence US pilots may be described as having 700h on type but will, in real terms, have many fewer on any given model.

[caller]

Very interesting article from the Seattle Times, with some very serious allegations (original seen in another forum I use).

Flawed analysis, failed oversight: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system

Federal Aviation Administration managers pushed its engineers to delegate wide responsibility for assessing the safety of the 737 MAX to Boeing itself. But safety engineers familiar with the documents shared details that show the analysis included crucial flaws.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... air-crash/

[caller]

Sorry, double post.

[hhinner]

On the news this morning (UK) they reported that Boeing had announced a new software update. Sounds very reassuring. Will they be doing OTA updates during flights in future?

[STEVE G]

On the news this morning (UK) they reported that Boeing had announced a new software update. Sounds very reassuring. Will they be doing OTA updates during flights in future?

I update software on Boeing 747's nearly every day but flight control computers are normally done off the aircraft.

[Nereus]

Very interesting article from the Seattle Times, with some very serious allegations (original seen in another forum I use).

Flawed analysis, failed oversight: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system
Federal Aviation Administration managers pushed its engineers to delegate wide responsibility for assessing the safety of the 737 MAX to Boeing itself. But safety engineers familiar with the documents shared details that show the analysis included crucial flaws.
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... air-crash/

Some very interesting reporting in that link. Not the least is the number of "former engineers", both FAA and Boeing!

Obviously there has been some short cuts along the way, followed by a lot of "buck passing". But it should be remembered that there are 350 737 Max aircraft in use, 348 of which have not crashed! That does not make it right, or bring back those victims killed. But it SHOULD raise the question of just what were the pilots of the crashed aircraft doing?

Boeing insists that the pilots on the Lion Air flight should have recognized that the horizontal stabilizer was moving uncommanded, and should have responded with a standard pilot checklist procedure to handle what’s called “stabilizer runaway.”

If they’d done so, the pilots would have hit cutoff switches and deactivated the automatic stabilizer movement.
Boeing has pointed out that the pilots flying the same plane on the day before the crash experienced similar behavior to Flight 610 and did exactly that: They threw the stabilizer cutoff switches, regained control and continued with the rest of the flight.

The black box data released in the preliminary investigation report shows that after this cycle repeated 21 times, the plane’s captain ceded control to the first officer. As MCAS pushed the nose down two or three times more, the first officer responded with only two short flicks of the thumb switches.

What sort of "Captain" cedes control to the FO?
It has been reported that the Ethiopian captain, aged 28 years, had over 8,000 hours flight time. As I posted previously, that amount of hours at that age is usually reserved for some gun cattle mustering helicopter pilot in Australia!

[europtimiste]

Boycott Boeing, fly Airbus.

[J.J.B.]

What sort of "Captain" cedes control to the FO?

If I’m not mistaken, in the Indonesia incident the PIC’s ASI was at odds with the copilot’s and in that case control was also handed over to the right hand seat. These aircraft are approved for multipilot operation and current training in crew resource management actively promotes the notion that the captain may not always be correct. Too many lives have been needlessly lost when captains believe they are infallible and nobody has had the courage to correct them, even in the face of impending doom.

Boycott Boeing, fly Airbus.

Your knowledge seems to be at odds with the facts. Airbus employed automated systems well before Boeing, which bring with them their own set of problems. The Air France 447 crash in 2009 perhaps caught your attention.

[Nereus]

I think you may be missing my point there, J.J.B. It has been reported that the recovered FDR recorded 21 attempts by the captain to correct the problem before calling on the FO. Both of them reportedly experienced pilots, the captain 6,000 hours and FO 5,000 hours.

Not sure about any discrepancy between the 2 ASI readings, all the reports that I have read place more blame on a faulty AOA sensor. Not flown with 2 crew, all my time was single pilot and very much seat of the of the pants.

I also flew a lot in Indonesia(not as crew),and some of the procedures that I saw would take some believing if not observed first hand.

In both of these incidents the pilots had very little altitude to make decisions, and the aircraft was probably surging all over what air space that they did have, along with all sorts of alarms going off. But from what I have read it appears to be SOP to engage the auto pilot as soon as the a few hundred feet have been gained. According again to published reports the MACA system is not active without the auto pilot.

[J.J.B.]

I’m sure there’s more to this than we currently know, perhaps the CVR analysis will help people work out the real issue. What I also found alarming from your earlier post was this:

Boeing has pointed out that the pilots flying the same plane on the day before the crash experienced similar behavior to Flight 610 and did exactly that: They threw the stabilizer cutoff switches, regained control and continued with the rest of the flight.

Boeing and the FAA clearly realise there is some kind of problem and don’t seem to be interested in doing much about it.

There is likely a world of difference between the flying you did and modern Commercial pilot training. Rather than cutting their teeth in the boondocks or the military, today’s pilots don’t actually have 6,000 hours’ experience but rather one hour, 6,000 times. It’s for this reason they engage the autopilot after raising the landing gear and can’t cope when the big spinny things stop or they can’t reconcile the known situation with what the computer is telling them.

I’d rather see an old guy at risk of diabetes, gout and a heart attack in the pointy end than one of these painted-on, designer-beardy types with permanent mirror shades in place. I know they’ve both passed the same medical but more confident that at least one of them can fly the damn thing!

[europtimiste]

Your knowledge seems to be at odds with the facts. Airbus employed automated systems well before Boeing, which bring with them their own set of problems. The Air France 447 crash in 2009 perhaps caught your attention.

Different case, different reason.