You're a better man than I am Gunga Din. Best to take the heat out of the situation and start again with a blank sheet, your apology helps make that possible. If everyone shows your goodwill and common sense a solution will be found acceptable to all.scotties wrote:I Davie Beattie from Scotties bar apoligise hole heartetly for my comments at the pool leauge meeting. I am not a racist in any way. To anybody and everybody that I upset I am very sorry.I had too much to drink and should not have attended the meeting in the state I was in.However this should not be an excuse and I was out of order. I would also like to make it plain to everybody that Craig Morgan had nothing at all to do with the comments that I made and he should not be misscalled for my actions.Craig actually tried to shut me up as I was too far gone.
If anybody wants a personal apology please come see me and they will get it.Once again my sincere apologys
An Ugly Spectacle
It would seem from the last few posts that a couple of things need to be done, the first of which would be another meeting to discuss where its all gone wrong.
Recent posts from BG, Farang, Randy and Jockey show the way forward.
Personally i think that Jockeys idea of a 20 or so team league with an end of season finale is interesting. A system of promotion and relegation has the effect, because of everyones desire to win, of making it too serious. Put all the teams in a hat and draw leagues is maybe an option. It is pretty boring going to the same bars 5 or 6 bars through the season, and who really cares if you get a good butt kickin at the hands of some teams! I always liked the idea of mixing 9 ball and 8 ball (I know rules dilemma). A crappy player always has a chance in 9 Ball. A way has got to be found to inject the fun into it again, this win at all costs attitude which has been adopted by certain bars is the reason that the fun has gone and is why we have pulled out. If the nights were fun then we would look forward to going to play, not dread the stern faces of our opponents as they work out how to lay the next impossible snooker when they have a chance to pot balls.
Recent posts from BG, Farang, Randy and Jockey show the way forward.
Personally i think that Jockeys idea of a 20 or so team league with an end of season finale is interesting. A system of promotion and relegation has the effect, because of everyones desire to win, of making it too serious. Put all the teams in a hat and draw leagues is maybe an option. It is pretty boring going to the same bars 5 or 6 bars through the season, and who really cares if you get a good butt kickin at the hands of some teams! I always liked the idea of mixing 9 ball and 8 ball (I know rules dilemma). A crappy player always has a chance in 9 Ball. A way has got to be found to inject the fun into it again, this win at all costs attitude which has been adopted by certain bars is the reason that the fun has gone and is why we have pulled out. If the nights were fun then we would look forward to going to play, not dread the stern faces of our opponents as they work out how to lay the next impossible snooker when they have a chance to pot balls.
Going on from what JW has said, if there is going to be any changes to the league structure, why not create a total fun league. This season several teams, including our team, wanted promotion and played very competitively as a result. Teams who want to, can decide to play in that league, have a rule about no deliberate snookers or whatever. It'll be a shame for teams to leave the leagues.
Also many teams do take it all seriously and get their enjoyment out of that, which is also fine. It's hard to stop natural competitiveness in a sporting event, particularly one with league tables where teams are competing against other teams. And in this respect many of us think the current organisers have got it just about right.
Burger
Also many teams do take it all seriously and get their enjoyment out of that, which is also fine. It's hard to stop natural competitiveness in a sporting event, particularly one with league tables where teams are competing against other teams. And in this respect many of us think the current organisers have got it just about right.
Burger
Burger - I agree with everything you have said in your last post apart from your suggestion of allowing teams to decide which league they wish to play in. The idea that a group of bars get together and pick their own leagues smacks of segregation to me Also this idea of calling one of the leagues a 'fun' league is insulting to the rest of the teams. It implies 'our league has fun and your league doesn't' Its that very attitude that is ruining everything! How would you consider entry into the fun league? Via a secret handshake 
The organisors need to be allowed to get on with the good job they are doing without interference and particularly without idiots threating break-away leagues and petitions etc. (which is what Chris has had to deal with).
I have observed a lot of the people who say they want more fun at the pool nights are actually the ones who moan the most, (particularly when they lose), making it less enjoyable for others.
Of course some teams are going to try harder and play better than others! Thats what makes the leagues more enjoyable. How about more people trying to focus on the positive side to the league and its organisation instead of consistently slagging it off? What is needed in my opinion is more sportsmanship and grace in defeat, and less of trying to focus on which teams are fun and which teams are not. Stop the illicit campaigns threating break aways and stop the constant moaning to others that "this is not fun anymore". If you say it often enough people start to believe it! Negativity is infectuous.
The majority of people who attend pool on Wednesdays really enjoy themselves. That is why they do it. It is the very people who keep on moaning week after week saying its not fun thats making it not fun!
The organisors need to be allowed to get on with the good job they are doing without interference and particularly without idiots threating break-away leagues and petitions etc. (which is what Chris has had to deal with).
I have observed a lot of the people who say they want more fun at the pool nights are actually the ones who moan the most, (particularly when they lose), making it less enjoyable for others.
Of course some teams are going to try harder and play better than others! Thats what makes the leagues more enjoyable. How about more people trying to focus on the positive side to the league and its organisation instead of consistently slagging it off? What is needed in my opinion is more sportsmanship and grace in defeat, and less of trying to focus on which teams are fun and which teams are not. Stop the illicit campaigns threating break aways and stop the constant moaning to others that "this is not fun anymore". If you say it often enough people start to believe it! Negativity is infectuous.
The majority of people who attend pool on Wednesdays really enjoy themselves. That is why they do it. It is the very people who keep on moaning week after week saying its not fun thats making it not fun!
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Wanderlust
- Legend
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- Location: Hua Hin
Hear, hear Jockey! I was already writing the following when yours was posted so excuse any echoes of yours. 
There have been many good, constructive comments on here, and all of them show that the pool league can pull itself around if it is allowed to. The fun aspect should be, without question, the top priority, as in everyone who participates should enjoy it, from the novice to the aspiring professional, which then naturally leads to the bars gaining out of it too, whether it is in the drinks purchased by those playing, or the extra customers attracted to the bar to see what is going on. There is no need to manufacture the league to ensure the bars make money if everyone is having fun. As Burger rightly says, different people enjoy their pool in different ways, however I see no problem in playing to try and win as long as it is done graciously and sportingly, so that whether the winners were lucky or played well they commiserate with the losers and are congratulated by them in return.
If the league is given some continuity by retaining the same format, rules and league structure for more than one season, then the natural effect will be that the most competitive and best teams will end up playing against each other, and the ones that are just happy for the social event will too. This continuity has not happened since the time Osmo was running the league, as certain people have tried to manipulate the league structure to their own liking - this has got to stop for the good of everyone. If a team finds itself in a particular league it has to accept it and get on with playing in it, or leave the league entirely. If there is some aspect of the rules or format they don't like, mention it to the organisers and let them consider it without organising some sort of pressure group or threaten to pull out if nothing is done. Equally, any changes made to any aspect of the league need to be very carefully considered before being implemented, and the old adage 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' is very appropriate here, so it should require a large majority of teams/players to want a change before it is done.
Several of the changes voted for at the recent meeting are ill-considered and will harm not only the fun but also the continuity. The most harmful has already been discussed at length on here, but others include increasing the minimum number of players in a team to six and changing the number of points allocated for each game in the three 'sections' of the match from 1,2,2 to 1,2,1. The first one will mean several teams not being able to field a full team on many occasions and possibly withdrawing completely, while the second one will mean that the match can be over as a contest before the end of the doubles, while also placing undue importance (in my opinion) on the doubles. However some enjoy doubles so it should be part of our competition, but should not have such importance. Pool is essentially a singles game after all.
The final aspect that needs to be looked at introspectively by everyone is their own behaviour and actions - as I have already said, if you lose, however you lose, it doesn't feel particularly good but you have to suck it up and accept it and shake the hands of the victors. Go away and console yourself with your team but don't try to blame anyone else for the loss. Maybe the league should introduce a new rule - the winners have to buy the losers a drink? Or they have to donate a sum to a designated charity?Equally no one should be unsporting by bringing in 'ringers' to try and ensure victory - after all there is no money at stake and if you win by what is perceived as cheating, it is a hollow victory and ultimately harms the overall competition, as well as making the team and bar a pariah. If a team does this then they are extremely sad individuals who gain nothing from it and lose the respect of everyone. I don't believe this is a very big problem but apparently it has happened.
I understand now that many aspects from the meeting are being reconsidered, and I applaud this while hoping that everything can be resolved - it is impossible for everyone to be happy with everything so Chris has a hard job on his hands but lets hope he succeeds.
There have been many good, constructive comments on here, and all of them show that the pool league can pull itself around if it is allowed to. The fun aspect should be, without question, the top priority, as in everyone who participates should enjoy it, from the novice to the aspiring professional, which then naturally leads to the bars gaining out of it too, whether it is in the drinks purchased by those playing, or the extra customers attracted to the bar to see what is going on. There is no need to manufacture the league to ensure the bars make money if everyone is having fun. As Burger rightly says, different people enjoy their pool in different ways, however I see no problem in playing to try and win as long as it is done graciously and sportingly, so that whether the winners were lucky or played well they commiserate with the losers and are congratulated by them in return.
If the league is given some continuity by retaining the same format, rules and league structure for more than one season, then the natural effect will be that the most competitive and best teams will end up playing against each other, and the ones that are just happy for the social event will too. This continuity has not happened since the time Osmo was running the league, as certain people have tried to manipulate the league structure to their own liking - this has got to stop for the good of everyone. If a team finds itself in a particular league it has to accept it and get on with playing in it, or leave the league entirely. If there is some aspect of the rules or format they don't like, mention it to the organisers and let them consider it without organising some sort of pressure group or threaten to pull out if nothing is done. Equally, any changes made to any aspect of the league need to be very carefully considered before being implemented, and the old adage 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' is very appropriate here, so it should require a large majority of teams/players to want a change before it is done.
Several of the changes voted for at the recent meeting are ill-considered and will harm not only the fun but also the continuity. The most harmful has already been discussed at length on here, but others include increasing the minimum number of players in a team to six and changing the number of points allocated for each game in the three 'sections' of the match from 1,2,2 to 1,2,1. The first one will mean several teams not being able to field a full team on many occasions and possibly withdrawing completely, while the second one will mean that the match can be over as a contest before the end of the doubles, while also placing undue importance (in my opinion) on the doubles. However some enjoy doubles so it should be part of our competition, but should not have such importance. Pool is essentially a singles game after all.
The final aspect that needs to be looked at introspectively by everyone is their own behaviour and actions - as I have already said, if you lose, however you lose, it doesn't feel particularly good but you have to suck it up and accept it and shake the hands of the victors. Go away and console yourself with your team but don't try to blame anyone else for the loss. Maybe the league should introduce a new rule - the winners have to buy the losers a drink? Or they have to donate a sum to a designated charity?Equally no one should be unsporting by bringing in 'ringers' to try and ensure victory - after all there is no money at stake and if you win by what is perceived as cheating, it is a hollow victory and ultimately harms the overall competition, as well as making the team and bar a pariah. If a team does this then they are extremely sad individuals who gain nothing from it and lose the respect of everyone. I don't believe this is a very big problem but apparently it has happened.
I understand now that many aspects from the meeting are being reconsidered, and I applaud this while hoping that everything can be resolved - it is impossible for everyone to be happy with everything so Chris has a hard job on his hands but lets hope he succeeds.
Jockey,
Know what you mean, my teammates fully support the current set up and organisers, we have not compalined about a single thing up until this recent situation with several bars, allegedely, not wishing to play with the majority Thai teams.
The above suggestion about a possible total fun league was just an option to consider as I know several teams do not like the competitiveness of other teams. Personally I do not agree with them but think it's better they can still participate rather than drop out altogether. I wasn't advocating teams picking whether they play in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd league or any breakaway leagues, we have 3 leagues already, just thought 2 could be competitive (with promotion/relegation), 1 could be for the less serious teams.
Burger
Know what you mean, my teammates fully support the current set up and organisers, we have not compalined about a single thing up until this recent situation with several bars, allegedely, not wishing to play with the majority Thai teams.
The above suggestion about a possible total fun league was just an option to consider as I know several teams do not like the competitiveness of other teams. Personally I do not agree with them but think it's better they can still participate rather than drop out altogether. I wasn't advocating teams picking whether they play in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd league or any breakaway leagues, we have 3 leagues already, just thought 2 could be competitive (with promotion/relegation), 1 could be for the less serious teams.
Burger
Last edited by Burger on Sun May 28, 2006 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm very pleased to see that you all appear to be bringing this matter to some kind of satisfactory conclusion.
Just one word of warning - there's been a lot of talk of removing the competition/turning it into a fun event. I agree you have to enjoy the evening, but it is also essential that the event remains competitive - if you lose that, the league will probably collapse in to a farce anyway.
Just one word of warning - there's been a lot of talk of removing the competition/turning it into a fun event. I agree you have to enjoy the evening, but it is also essential that the event remains competitive - if you lose that, the league will probably collapse in to a farce anyway.
Burger
Interesting suggestion but to me a seperate 'fun' league with no relegation or promotion would still smack of segregation to many. What P's me off the most is the idea that is doing the rounds - if your team plays crap then you are having 'fun' but if your team tries harder then they are not having 'fun'. I thought the opposite applys in any sport or game but there you go!
I was talking to a couple of mates last night. One of them was the founder of the league. We talked about a format that may be worth considering and would be all-inclusive etc. It went (something) like this:
Currently there are about 24 teams. Organise the competition based on Champions League type format. 4 groups of 6, drawn from the hat but seeded. Each team would play each other twice = 10 games. The top 2 from each league would then form 2 leagues of 4 and the top 2 from this have a semi and a champions final.
The rest of the teams would have 4 groups of 4 - the top 2 from each group rewarded with a quarters / semi and final.
Personally I think ideas like this can only be decided on by the committee members looking at the feasability and pros / cons. Not by mob-handed meetings voting on ill-considered rule changes.
I also agree with Wanderlust in that continuity is needed. We need to back the commitee to decide what is best for the league - and oppose anyone who try to make their job more difficult.
Interesting suggestion but to me a seperate 'fun' league with no relegation or promotion would still smack of segregation to many. What P's me off the most is the idea that is doing the rounds - if your team plays crap then you are having 'fun' but if your team tries harder then they are not having 'fun'. I thought the opposite applys in any sport or game but there you go!
I was talking to a couple of mates last night. One of them was the founder of the league. We talked about a format that may be worth considering and would be all-inclusive etc. It went (something) like this:
Currently there are about 24 teams. Organise the competition based on Champions League type format. 4 groups of 6, drawn from the hat but seeded. Each team would play each other twice = 10 games. The top 2 from each league would then form 2 leagues of 4 and the top 2 from this have a semi and a champions final.
The rest of the teams would have 4 groups of 4 - the top 2 from each group rewarded with a quarters / semi and final.
Personally I think ideas like this can only be decided on by the committee members looking at the feasability and pros / cons. Not by mob-handed meetings voting on ill-considered rule changes.
I also agree with Wanderlust in that continuity is needed. We need to back the commitee to decide what is best for the league - and oppose anyone who try to make their job more difficult.
Last edited by Jockey on Sun May 28, 2006 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wanderlust
- Legend
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- Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:27 pm
- Location: Hua Hin
The 'Champions League' style format certainly has possibilities, and would also be more interesting and varied, as after the first stage every team would be guaranteed to play against some different teams in the next phase. It would also mean that the following season it is unlikely that you would be facing all the same teams again. Some decisions would have to be taken on how to work out the rankings and seedings, and whether changes would also have to take place regarding the two knockout tournaments but I doubt that would be necessary. The one thing I would like to see is that 9-ball reappears in some form, whether it is as part of the regular format with it being a mixture of both 8 and 9-ball in the same match, or more workably that the Cup and Shield become 9-ball tournaments, with the league 8-ball. I believe, again, that this variety would make the season more interesting. Obviously the match formats would also have to be looked at, and there is a slight problem in that not all the tables are best suited to 9-ball but this is only a minor issue when it is not a week in, week out competition. As JW says, 9-ball does give the lesser players more of a chance to win some games too.
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Guess
- Deceased
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- Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:01 pm
- Location: BangSaphan. Laurasia. Sub thumb
All good positive stuff now with a good summing up by Big Boy.
The point of returning to a fun league has always been on the agenda and has been stated by even some of the dissident teams. The problem is though that it is not something that can be legislated for like a rule change.
It does need input from sensible individuals like the ones who are now continuing to post after all the negative destructive critics have gone off and found someone else’s problem to poke there noses into.
There have been many good ideas posted here recently that could be implemented.
My comment on the continuity is that in the vastly changing and expanding world we live in, especially here in Hua Hin, changes do have to be made. The intention has always been to make the changes as slowly as possible to enable a smooth path forward.
My current thinking is that all changes should be made by the committee with contributions from the sort of people who are now continuing to post on the subject.
Anyway the positive note here is that the dust is now settling and everybody involved seems to be no singing from the same hymn sheet.
Learn from the past, plan for and move toward the future.
One request I would like to make here is that if anyone hears anything relating to the pool league that is detrimental (or contructive of course) whether it involves and individual, a team, a sponsor or even the league in its entirety make sure an email is sent to huahinpoolleagues@yahoo.com where it will be treated in the strictest confidence and only with the permission of the originator. These will all be stored in an area where they can be accessed at the appropriate time.
The point of returning to a fun league has always been on the agenda and has been stated by even some of the dissident teams. The problem is though that it is not something that can be legislated for like a rule change.
It does need input from sensible individuals like the ones who are now continuing to post after all the negative destructive critics have gone off and found someone else’s problem to poke there noses into.
There have been many good ideas posted here recently that could be implemented.
My comment on the continuity is that in the vastly changing and expanding world we live in, especially here in Hua Hin, changes do have to be made. The intention has always been to make the changes as slowly as possible to enable a smooth path forward.
My current thinking is that all changes should be made by the committee with contributions from the sort of people who are now continuing to post on the subject.
Anyway the positive note here is that the dust is now settling and everybody involved seems to be no singing from the same hymn sheet.
Learn from the past, plan for and move toward the future.
One request I would like to make here is that if anyone hears anything relating to the pool league that is detrimental (or contructive of course) whether it involves and individual, a team, a sponsor or even the league in its entirety make sure an email is sent to huahinpoolleagues@yahoo.com where it will be treated in the strictest confidence and only with the permission of the originator. These will all be stored in an area where they can be accessed at the appropriate time.
[color=blue][size=134]Care in the community success story.[/size][/color]
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Guess
- Deceased
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- Location: BangSaphan. Laurasia. Sub thumb
The Champions League (and World Cup) format is popular with me. You will find that it is used in the individuals format. One issue that has to be dealt with though (as in The Champs League and the World Cup) is that if all are invited it will never be a number divisible by four. Some way then has to be found to round the number for the final showdown. There are ways of doing it of course but it needs a planning committe.Wanderlust wrote:....The 'Champions League' style format certainly has possibilities...
.....The one thing I would like to see is that 9-ball reappears in some form, whether it is as part of the regular format with it being a mixture of both 8 and 9-ball in the same match
As for 9-Ball there are many player that do not like it at all, many that would play although prefer 8-Ball and a few like myself who would play 9-Ball all the time without ever needing the remaining six balls.
Anyway gents the whistle has just gone and my play time is over.
[color=blue][size=134]Care in the community success story.[/size][/color]
After recent events it appears that everybody gets to sling the mud. A round 99% of what is in this thread should be directed at the league, it's the league that needs to know what the teams playing want to do, not HHAD.
Second hand info or totally made up comments don't help anyone.
If certain people don't like something call a meeting view your remarks to the people at the meeting and to the chairman of the pool league.
We have never used RINGERS in any game and nobody has been paid or paid off. I could list many incidents of unsportsmanlike behaviour, but that is for the pool league not a public forum.
Hiding behind fictitious names and airing wild accusations is unsportsmanlike at best and cowardly at worst.
HHAD is one of the better forums on Thailand and Thai living, I think the mods would agree that threads should not be used for personal attacks on individuals or bars.
Second hand info or totally made up comments don't help anyone.
If certain people don't like something call a meeting view your remarks to the people at the meeting and to the chairman of the pool league.
We have never used RINGERS in any game and nobody has been paid or paid off. I could list many incidents of unsportsmanlike behaviour, but that is for the pool league not a public forum.
Hiding behind fictitious names and airing wild accusations is unsportsmanlike at best and cowardly at worst.
HHAD is one of the better forums on Thailand and Thai living, I think the mods would agree that threads should not be used for personal attacks on individuals or bars.
Good point Guess, but these things as you know can be sorted out without too much difficulty. i.e:Guess wrote:The Champions League (and World Cup) format is popular with me. You will find that it is used in the individuals format. One issue that has to be dealt with though (as in The Champs League and the World Cup) is that if all are invited it will never be a number divisible by four. Some way then has to be found to round the number for the final showdown. There are ways of doing it of course but it needs a planning committe.
20 teams = 4 groups of 5. Top 2 of each group create 2 groups of 4. The remaining 12 teams could be 3 groups of 4 or 4 groups of 3. If 3 groups of 4, the winners of each group plus the next team with the most racks won create semis / final.
21 teams = 3 groups of 5 and 1 group of 6. Top 2 of each group create 2 groups of 4. The remaining 13 teams could be 2 groups of 4 and 1 group of 5. The winners of the groups of 4 and 1st and 2nd from the group of 5 could form a semi / final.
etc. etc.
It may be beneficial to try to expand the amount of teams up to 32, (no more than 2 teams per bar unless they have extra pool tables). To do this all teams would consist of 4 players rather than the proposed mandatory 6. This could improve players enjoyment as matches usually take about 3 hours. If all teams use 6 players it means each player has only 1 game per hour (and one of them is doubles). Having only 4 in a team means players get more games, although admittedly having more bars with 2 teams could cause major fixture problems.
There is lots to consider but I am sure (nearly) everyone has confidence you will make good choices. Radical changes such as the format described above may need a full season to plan?
I'll leave you with the famous words of the great Dylan...
Half the people can be part right all of the time, an'
Some of the people can be all right part of the time,
But all the people can't be all right all of the time.
I think Abraham Lincoln said that.
"I'll let you be in my dream if I can be in yours."
I said that.
Absolutely correct, which is why the offensive posts have been removed and certain individuals will not be posting again.octopussy wrote:After recent events it appears that everybody gets to sling the mud. A round 99% of what is in this thread should be directed at the league, it's the league that needs to know what the teams playing want to do, not HHAD.
Second hand info or totally made up comments don't help anyone.
If certain people don't like something call a meeting view your remarks to the people at the meeting and to the chairman of the pool league.
We have never used RINGERS in any game and nobody has been paid or paid off. I could list many incidents of unsportsmanlike behaviour, but that is for the pool league not a public forum.
Hiding behind fictitious names and airing wild accusations is unsportsmanlike at best and cowardly at worst.
HHAD is one of the better forums on Thailand and Thai living, I think the mods would agree that threads should not be used for personal attacks on individuals or bars.