Windows 8

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Re: Windows 8

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Well, it's run for 24 hours without crashing, so I guess that's good. :wink: The only reason it's been running that long is I can't figure out how to turn the d*mn thing off!

Even though I've used Windows forever, and used and programmed computers well before Windows, I am not a 'power user'. I'm not a grumpy old man who can't handle change, either.

This is much more jarring than the change from Win 3.1 to Win 95. On a tablet or a phone this UI is probably fine - it reminds me of my friend's IPad a little. If I bought a tablet (I'd be more inclined to go Android than Apple) I'd figure I had to learn a new UI and kind of go with the flow.

Watching Task Manager and just looking at things like the time to launch apps and such, it's obvious that Win 8 uses resources MUCH better than Vista, and possibly better than Win 7. It's comparable to Ubuntu 10.4 (I think - anyway, the last long term release before they did this stupid UI the same as MS). It is easily 'fast enough' on a 4.5 year old Toshiba laptop with 2 GB RAM, which Vista made as slow as molasses on a cold day.

The question to me is why MS chose to get rid of the 'classic' Windows interface they brought in with Win 95. Adding Metro is fine and may make tablet/IPad users more comfortable. Forcing that UI on long term Windows users who can easily adapt to minor changes seems like a really terrible marketing decision. Given the RAM and disk space of any modern PC, there's absolutely no reason the user shouldn't be able to choose the UI he wants.

So... internals get a big thumbs up so far, while the UI gets a HUGE thumbs down. I use computers to do stuff and this does not make it easier to do stuff. When it comes to the UI of an OS, that's what it's about. Make it easy for me to find and launch an app and then close that app when I'm finished and want to do something else.

I hope MS rethinks this a little. It's not that important to me personally as I don't even need Windows anymore - I can do everything I want to do in Linux, but this looks like betting the farm on a pair of deuces. For instance, here's one 'feature' the utility of which absolutely escapes me. There's no button/icon to close a window (app) but if I move the mouse pointer to the top of the screen I see the pointer as a hand. I can reduce the size of the window and drag it around, but as soon as I release the mouse button, the window pops back to full screen mode. WTF use is that? Did no one think that I was reducing the size of the window and moving it because I wanted to get it out of the way?

Disclaimer: Like most developers, I tend to focus on things the typical user may never notice. Many times I have gone to my boss or to a client saying, "Hey I found this horrible bug in section X" only to be told, "Cool, fix the bug but don't worry about it - all the users spend their time in section Y." Also, I'm neither a Microsoft basher nor an apologist. MS has done some really awful stuff and some really great stuff. This, like I said earlier, looks like a strange reversal - nice on the inside, ugly on the outside.
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Re: Windows 8

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A Professional Review of the Windows 8 Preview OS:

"A Windows veteran looks at Win8 Consumer Preview

Woody Leonhard By Woody Leonhard

If you download and install Windows 8 Consumer Preview, released late last week, I can almost guarantee that you won't like it.

I know only a handful of experienced Windows users (who don't work for or with Microsoft) who say they like Windows 8. But it's the future, eh?

Microsoft is not building Windows 8 for the garden-variety Windows expert. You and I aren't being ignored, exactly, but we're not at the top of the Win8 food chain. As perplexing as it might sound, aiming Windows 8 at a different demographic is probably a good decision. But it still might lead to Windows' demise.

There's a good reason why Microsoft is cutting us old salts loose. Money. We aren't generating enough revenue, and the future looks grim indeed. Microsoft made its basic decisions about moving to a touch-centric world three years ago. That's before the first iPad was released. Since then, the market has proven Steve Sinofsky right: Microsoft's traditional PC market has sunk into a funk, and mountains of iPhones, iPads, and MacBooks are rising in its place.

Sales of PCs in the U.S. fell steeply in the fourth quarter last year, compared to one year before. In the U.S., Windows mostly comes preinstalled on new PCs, so any decline in hardware sales is a hit on Microsoft's revenues, too. PC sales in China soared, but as I reported in a June 2011 AskWoody.com post, only five percent or so of new PCs in China ship with Windows. Bottom line: Windows revenue dropped, and it's likely to drop again — and again.

At the same time, the iPad rolled over the market like a tank — there were more iPads sold in the fourth quarter of 2011 than desktop computers, for heaven's sake. Nobody predicted that. But Microsoft had enough of a premonition three years ago to start building a radically different kind of Windows, one more attuned to tablets and fingers and less dependent on mice and keyboards.

As things stand, by the time Windows 8 hits the shelves, Apple will have a two-and-a-half-year lead in that part of the market — let's not mince words — in the iPad part of the market. Can Microsoft catch up? More to the point, can Microsoft catch up without alienating us billion-plus Windows users — especially the ones other consumers look to for advice?

A quick guide to the Win8 Consumer Preview

A million people downloaded the Windows 8 Consumer Preview in the first 24 hours it was available. If you have a spare PC lying around — even an old Windows XP PC — I suggest you give it a try. You'll need a monitor that gives you a screen resolution of 1024 x 768 pixels or more; to get the full effect, plan on at least 1366 x 768 pixels. Other than that, just about any PC will do: 1GHz processor, 1GB RAM, 16GB of hard-disk space, and a reasonable video card.

Some folks run Win8 Consumer Preview inside virtual machines. That's a reasonable approach if you don't have an extra PC lying around, but you'll get a better feel for it if you run it on live metal or go for a dual boot. The best testbed, of course, is a sufficiently capable tablet. But there are precious few of those around. At this point, the Samsung Series 7 Slate looks like the tablet of choice; it's the one Microsoft's been handing out to the anointed few.

You can find guides to installing Win8 all over the Internet. My only caveat is, if you decide to install using the Web interface, make sure you install it in a new partition, or it will completely wipe out your old copy of Windows. Do a completely clean install. In-place upgrades always, always have problems — and usually sooner than later. (Next week's Top Story will be a step-by-step guide to getting Win8 up and running in a VirtualBox VPC. That's even safer than a dual-boot setup.)

When Windows comes up, you'll have to sign on — you'll then be greeted with the new Metro Start screen, as shown in Figure 1.

Metro Start screen
Image
Figure 1. Part of Windows 8's initial Start screen

This is the screen that's giving everyone fits. The screen itself isn't bad — play with it for five minutes, put your cursor in each of the corners, click and drag, and you can see what's happening. The problem is that Microsoft wants you to use this screen instead of the Start menu. In fact, it so fervently want you to change over to the Metro Start screen, they've removed the Start menu completely.

As you poke your way through the rest of the UI, hold onto your keyboard — you're in for a jarring experience. For example, click on the Desktop tile — the one with the weird Metro-ized fish on it, at the bottom of Figure 1. That sends you into what Microsoft calls the legacy desktop (a concept that might give you pause), shown in Figure 2. You'll see that it looks a lot like the Windows 7 desktop.

Legacy desktop
Image
Figure 2. The legacy desktop looks and acts a lot like the Windows 7 desktop.

While in Desktop, put your cursor down in the lower-left corner (just to the left of the Internet Explorer icon) — the place that used to have the Start button or orb. Hover your pointer in the corner until the Metro Start box appears. Click the box.

Whoooosh! You're transported back to the Metro Start screen — and there's precious little you can do about it. It's visually perturbing: one second you're on the legacy Windows desktop; the next second, you're playing with telephone buttons. In Win8, your familiar Start menu is gone — and believe me, the Metro Start screen is a whole new, er, kettle of fish.

If you work with the Metro Start screen for a while, you might grow more accustomed to its new face. I've been playing with it since September, and I can see how I might be able to get used to it. Still, it's not a Start menu — not even close. My brain still gets a jolt every time I jump from Metro Start to the legacy desktop, click where the Start orb used to be, and find myself back in Metro again.

By the way, there's already a hack that lets you bring back something that resembles the Start menu, if you're so inclined. (It's astounding that there are already hacks for an operating system that is still months away from its official release.) Check out a post by Microsoft MVP Vishal Gupta. But don't be too surprised if Microsoft breaks the hack in the next update to Windows 8.

Coming to the tablet market on different paths

Microsoft has been making tablet software for a decade, and it has never has put a dent in the market. Apple has been making tablet software for just two years, and it's selling them like Starbucks lattes. But Microsoft is determined to have a significant piece of the touch-enabled action.

The two companies have, however, very different approaches to that market. Apple started out with a smartphone operating system (iOS) and quickly grew it to become the world's best-selling tablet OS. There's very little difference between iOS 5 on an iPhone and iOS 5 on an iPad. Applications written for one device usually work on the other. The only reason there are some apps that come in iPhone and iPad versions is to take advantage of the latter's larger screen.

On the other hand, Apple's computer operating system, OS X, is completely different from iOS. It's built and optimized for use with a Mac computer. Apple is slowly changing the programs, er, apps on both iOS and OS X so they resemble each other and work together. But as I said, the operating systems are fundamentally quite different (even though, yes, iOS did start out with the Mac OS Darwin foundation).

Three years ago, when Windows 7 was finished, Steve Sinofsky and crew decided to take a different tack. Instead of growing their phone software up, they decided to grow their computer operating system down. What you see in Windows 8 is the fruits of that decision: it has both touch-friendly and mouse-/keyboard-friendly parts. The two aren't mutually exclusive: you can use your mouse on the Metro Start screen and in the Metro apps; you can use your greasy thumb on a legacy Windows app. However, the approaches for the two halves of the Win8 UI are different — the designs don't match, and their intent is different.

The next step is to extend Windows even further — down to the Windows Phone, which will be going through another wrenching change in short order. I call it a brain transplant: the old Windows CE core of the phone software will be replaced by the Windows MinWin kernel (more info). In the not-too-distant future, Microsoft will be able to say that Windows covers all the bases, from lowly smartphones to gigantic workstations (and even server farms). The fact that the "Windows" running in each of the device classes is quite different kinda gets swept under the rug.

There's another train wreck, er, hardware opportunity headed our way. Microsoft says that by the time Windows 8 ships, it'll be available on a completely new class of hardware based on ARM designs. These Windows on ARM (WOA) computers will be small, light, and inexpensive and will have long battery life and amazing, touch-sensitive displays.

In other words, they'll be everything the current Intel/AMD tablets aren't, and they'll be very similar to the iPad. WOA computers won't run traditional Windows apps. With a few (Microsoft-controlled) exceptions, they'll run only the Metro interface. They won't connect to corporate networks, won't have the security that Win8 packs, and won't have anywhere close to the same number of apps. Those are the machines Microsoft will directly target at the iPad.

Microsoft's Windows Live — we hardly knew ye

As you play with the Consumer Preview, you'll discover that the included Metro apps — Mail, Messaging, Photos, People, Calendar, Music, and others — are just stubs. They have almost no functionality. That will change. Microsoft's working furiously to get full-fledged versions of all these apps out the door. Borrowing a trick that MS learned with Windows Live Essentials, though, means the apps don't have to be ready when Windows 8 goes gold ("Release to Manufacturing"). They have to be available for download only when the retail versions of Window 8 are released — probably two or three months after Win8's code is frozen.

The Metro apps basically kill the old Windows Live apps, as I reported in a recent article. Microsoft still hasn't explained whether it will keep supporting and updating the Windows Live programs for Windows XP, Vista and Windows 7 users, but it seems unlikely Microsoft will make any significant improvements. There's no money in it. The future is new, touch-friendly Metro apps that run on a completely different code base.

The folks at LiveSide, who have been following Windows Live devotedly since its inception, have a sad post, "The long botched history of Windows Live," that's well worth a read.

The post states, "So as we mark what looks like the end of Windows Live as a brand with the launch of Windows 8 … Microsoft doesn't look like it will even do the honorable thing and put poor Windows Live out of its misery. Not only will we be referring to 'Windows Live' just out of habit, but the name will continue to be baked into products both from Microsoft and third parties, probably for a long time to come."

These massive changes, well under way, affect all Windows users — but they especially impact us grizzled Windows veterans. Take a look at the Windows 8 Consumer Preview to see where the PC world's headed. Like it or not, that's where Microsoft believes the market is. You get to decide whether you want to join."
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Re: Windows 8

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Well, long live Windows 7 then, its likely to last as long as XP if M$ want to force us to all become smeary fingered tablet monkeys.
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Re: Windows 8

Post by Pleng »

My fingers react so badly with capacitive touch screens that they leave smears across devices that don't wipe off. The last capacitive device I had, the screen literally eroded to the point of unusibility within 8 months.

I guess there is no future for me!

Thank [insert your favourite religions symbol here] for the cheap Chinese knock-off phones and their cost cutting resistive screens! :)
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Re: Windows 8

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I've been playing with it since September, and I can see how I might be able to get used to it.
That just about says it all. It's not that I _can't_ learn a new UI, it's that I don't want to and see no reason why I should. Even if Ubuntu goes all tablet all the time, someone in the Linux community will be putting out a usable OS. I can be functional on most Linux systems in 1 - 10 minutes. Why spend days learning a new UI and paying MS for the privilege?

Long live Ubuntu or Win 7, or even XP if I can find drivers... :laugh:
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Re: Windows 8

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After playing with it for a few hours, I don't hate it as much as I thought I would, but I can't imagine myself wanting to upgrade to it either.

A few observations after maybe four to six hours with Win 8:

Startup time from hitting the on/off button to a 'log in screen' is about fifteen seconds. However, the actual log in is hidden behind a pretty picture with a display showing the time and date, wireless signal strength and battery. If I click on the screen, the picture moves up about half an inch and then back down into place. I have to click and drag the picture UP to log in. I can't drag it down or sideways. See, the really cool, intuitive part 8)
is that the picture's movement gives me a hint which way I need to move the picture. The idea is to allow apps to display status even when your machine is locked, which sounds like a nice feature, but I'd rather just be able to click on the picture or select an account to log into right from the lock screen. Having to drag it just seems a little pretentious.

I really don't like the Metro tiles. However, you can get to a 'normal' desktop just by clicking on the desktop tile.

Once in a normal desktop you can install apps and Firefox and Open Office seem to work okay, though I haven't tested them extensively. You can dock them in the task bar, etc.

There _is_ help available, but oddly, you have to find a lot of stuff before you get there. That there isn't a 'Help' tile seems a big oversight.

Right-clicking is almost dead, even in file manager. I find that quite strange, but I assume that's because right clicking would be difficult with a tablet. EDIT TO NOTE: RIGHT CLICKING DOES WORK. Either the right mouse button was dead, or Win 8 wasn't detecting it. I changed out the mouse just to test.

I'm not sure yet whether I can 'dock' documents to apps like I can in Win 7, which is a feature I would certainly miss.

I found a Metro UI tweaker, but it doesn't seem to do anything to this version - there'll probably be an update in a week or so.

I can move the Metro tiles around, but I haven't figured out how to delete or hide ones that I don't need, which is pretty much all of them.

The slick dragging around of Metro apps and such that I saw in a demo video doesn't seem to work very well on my machine.

I still can't see how to close a Metro app.

I'm probably missing all the fun parts because I'm not interested in the XBox or Live stuff.

Shutting down is a little tedious, too. as I have to log out before I shut down. Shut down time is very fast.

It seems solid enough, I just don't care much for how it looks.
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Re: Windows 8

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Once I get the right mouse click working I was able to remove apps and may be able to make this vaguely usable and a lot more stuff is acting normally. I haven't had a mouse fail in ages so just didn't think about it.
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Re: Windows 8

Post by Farang »

Any user interface in Windows since XP has been a definite turn for the worse. I do not care about the OS, just the interface. Vista and Windows 7 interfaces make everything more complicated, more awkward and less fluid and transparent than on XP.

I'll stay with XP as long as possible, by hook, trick and crook. At the final demise of XP I'll change to any system most closely resembling XP. If there is no way to make Windows 8 interface look and act like XP, I'll not use it.

Probably this all entails going away from Windows altogether. So much the better.
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Re: Windows 8

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HHADFan wrote:

Right-clicking is almost dead, even in file manager. I find that quite strange, but I assume that's because right clicking would be difficult with a tablet. EDIT TO NOTE: RIGHT CLICKING DOES WORK. Either the right mouse button was dead, or Win 8 wasn't detecting it. I changed out the mouse just to test.
Right clicking on a tablet is approximated by a long press on the screen
I still can't see how to close a Metro app.
You don't.

Metro follows the Linux/Android ethos of 'unused memory is wasted memory'. If Metro needs more memory to run another app, it will automatically shut down an app that hasn't been used in a long time. The idea is to give a more responsive experience; the apps you are always using will always stay in memory so will appear much quicker.

Generally it's a good idea. It's a pain in the *ss when developing specialist embedded apps, though. Luckily there is a way to terminate your app through code in Android. I would hope the same would be true for Metro apps.
Shutting down is a little tedious, too. as I have to log out before I shut down.
But who ever shuts down for the start menu these days? Most of us surely have gotten into the habit of just pressing the power button to shut down (though I guess W8 will have this configured to sleep by default), right?
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Re: Windows 8

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Pleng wrote:
HHADFan wrote:

Right-clicking is almost dead, even in file manager. I find that quite strange, but I assume that's because right clicking would be difficult with a tablet. EDIT TO NOTE: RIGHT CLICKING DOES WORK. Either the right mouse button was dead, or Win 8 wasn't detecting it. I changed out the mouse just to test.
Right clicking on a tablet is approximated by a long press on the screen


I still can't see how to close a Metro app.
You don't.

Metro follows the Linux/Android ethos of 'unused memory is wasted memory'. If Metro needs more memory to run another app, it will automatically shut down an app that hasn't been used in a long time. The idea is to give a more responsive experience; the apps you are always using will always stay in memory so will appear much quicker.

Generally it's a good idea. It's a pain in the *ss when developing specialist embedded apps, though. Luckily there is a way to terminate your app through code in Android. I would hope the same would be true for Metro apps.
Shutting down is a little tedious, too. as I have to log out before I shut down.
But who ever shuts down for the start menu these days? Most of us surely have gotten into the habit of just pressing the power button to shut down (though I guess W8 will have this configured to sleep by default), right?
Actually, you can close a Metro app, though the process at the moment looks a little complex and requires a right click :laugh: . There may well be a simpler way that I haven't discovered. Normal Windows apps appear to run and terminate normally.

I checked and Win8 does sleep rather than power down if you hit the power button. To be honest, I almost never turn computers off, and on the really rare occasions I do, I do it through the Start button and I want them off.

I'm completely unfamiliar with Android pads or iPads or iPhones, though I did develop a Hazmat truck display using an ARM (Thumb, I think) embedded Linux, and a touch screen a few years ago. The touch screen interface was quite simple and didn't require more than detecting a simple press, so simulating mouse behavior didn't come up.
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Re: Windows 8

Post by wpcoe »

For users not wanting to adapt to Metro, there's really nothing keeping them from operating solely on the Desktop. After boot, just a click on the Desktop tile in Metro will take you to the Desktop. No need to use Metro at all really, if you don't want to explore Metro apps. The only thing missing from the Desktop is the Start button.

It has been speculated that there is no way to disable Metro in the Consumer Preview version because Microsoft wants as much feedback/input about Metro as possible. It is entirely possible that when Windows 8 debuts as a retail product, there will be a way to turn off/bypass/disable Metro.

As mentioned above, when you boot into Windows 8, there's an annoying -- pretty, but annoying -- screen you must navigate past to get to the password screen. I found by accident that just pressing the <enter> key will get you past it. But, why is that screen even there?

I'm not a Metro fan, but I think it will develop a following. One glaring omission from the Metro screen is the lack of a clock. I'm addicted to using my Windows screen as a clock -- the clock should always be visible!

Also, the weather app doesn't work right. It shows a temperature, but that temperature never seems to be updated. Kinda useless to see what the weather was six hours ago when I booted...

I also pinned a Shutdown shortcut to the Desktop task bar. If I'm in Metro and want to shut down, I press the "Windows key" to get to the Desktop, and then click the shortcut. Two steps. I could probably pin Sleep or Hibernate or Restart shortcuts, as well.

Operating Windows 8 in VMware is tricky as trying to click to use the "Four Corners" feature, I keep overshooting and ending up outside the VMware window.
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Re: Windows 8

Post by Pleng »

I guess there'll be a clock app available, but yes... time should ALWAYS be visible.
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Re: Windows 8

Post by hhfarang »

Windows 8 dropping the ability to play DVDs
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/technology- ... 46904.html
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Re: Windows 8

Post by Homer »

hhfarang wrote:
Windows 8 dropping the ability to play DVDs
A workaround is to install Oracle VirtualBox, which is free. VirtualBox allows one to run another operating system inside a window as if it were just another program. Install a previous version of Windows in VirtualBox and play your DVDs there. https://www.virtualbox.org/

In other words:
DVD plays one the Windows media player (WMP),
WMP runs in Win7 or earlier version,
Win<=7 runs in VirtualBox,
VirtualBox runs in Win8.

Need a visual aid? This screenshot shows Solitare running in WinXP running in VirtualBox running in LinuxMint 9
1stWinApp-8.jpg
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Re: Windows 8

Post by Pleng »

Yea that's quite a BIG workaround simply for playing DVDs. Installing XBMC would be a much better alternative (better than Windows Media Centre anyway...)

from the article:
Windows 8 will allow customers the option to install a Windows Media Center upgrade to allow DVD playback at extra cost, though Microsoft is not saying exactly how high that cost will be
I wouldn't imagine it would be that high, either. It's just so Microsoft don't have to pay licence fees.

And let's face it, pretty much all retailers of computers loaded with Windows 8 will probably install the upgrade as standard, thus Microsoft has just magically moved one cost away from them and onto the retailers. Clever stuff...
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