Solar power setup for your home in Thailand

[STEVE G]

^ Yes, if I'm alive long enough to have to replace solar panels, I'll be surprised!

[Dannie Boy]

^ Yes, if I'm alive long enough to have to replace solar panels, I'll be surprised!

Well I’d be delighted to change mine if I bought them, as I could very well be into three figures by then!!


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[Nereus]

The shortest life span, and the most expensive to replace, are the batteries.

Many variations can affect their life span, starting with the intial quality of them. Right now Lithium-ion are the best option, but with continuing development in the technology, there may well be better options in the future.
It is important to spec battery capacity on the intended load cycle, rather than the capital cost.

[Suua]

Here's my take on payback.....although, I will outline why I think it is not really something to be considered at the end of the explanation.

Solar systems and why the payback time is a lot shorter than you might think.

These days prices have dropped dramatically.
Typically, a residential system without batteries will payback within 2-3 years.
Typically, a residential system with batteries will payback within 6-8 years.

I've had my solar system for 6 months now.
It is a system with batteries.
Typically this type of system will 'payback' (return the original investment) after 6-8 years.
This term can be shortened considerably in reality.
Here's how......

Usually, this 6-8 year return is calculated on the current household electricity bill (before solar is installed).
Most people will try and use the minimum amount of air conditioners possible as they're (justifiably) concerned about their electricity bill.
My house has 5 air conditioners.
Before my solar install, I would run a maximum of 2 AC units at any one time, and just 1 if possible, as I was concerned about the cost.
Now I have my solar system, on a sunny day I will run all 5 AC units during the day as they are all powered from the panels.....taking no power from the grid (PEA in Thailand).

Why? well it's like the 'fridge effect' whereby the whole house gets cooled down and come evening time will be easier to keep cool by just using 1 or 2 AC units.
I would never have done this prior to having solar power, as the thought of the electricity bill at the end of the month was scary.
How much would it have cost to run all 5 AC units all day long without solar power...... it would have easily doubled, if not trebled my bill.
Add this to the ever increasing cost of electricity, It's not hard to see when using this approach, the return period will be a lot less than 6-8 years....probably closer to 3 or 4.

I often hear people talking about payback on a solar system, but never hear the same justification when talking about buying a car.
I never hear anyone telling me the investment in their car will take x amount of years to repay.
One could take public transport, buses, trains, uber or grab to get around vs buying a car.
Convenience factors in for sure, but if push comes to shove, anyone can order a taxi or take the bus.
How much would you spend a year doing this has never been mentioned???
Moreover, the value of your car after 6-8 years will be significantly less....not so with a solar system.
After that point, you're saving money, not losing it.

I think the investment into an environmentally friendly way to produce free electricity, is a no brainer in this part of the world.
A real shame it's taken so long for prices to make this enormously beneficial method of producing electricity, accessible for a lot of people.

[Suua]

Dear mods,
Not sure if this is allowed, so apologies if not and please remove as necessary.

This website explains more.
huahinsolarandcctv.com

[STEVE G]

Usually, this 6-8 year return is calculated on the current household electricity bill (before solar is installed).
Most people will try and use the minimum amount of air conditioners possible as they're (justifiably) concerned about their electricity bill.
My house has 5 air conditioners.
Before my solar install, I would run a maximum of 2 AC units at any one time, and just 1 if possible, as I was concerned about the cost.
Now I have my solar system, on a sunny day I will run all 5 AC units during the day as they are all powered from the panels.....taking no power from the grid (PEA in Thailand).

This factor is actually why I stopped trying to make a detailed calculation of cost benefit. How much value do you put on the amount of electricity that you use just because you have it for free?
If you didn't have it, you wouldn't be using it but it certainly has some value, it must be somewhere between nothing and the current price of electricity but a figure to use to calculate is hard to quantify.
It's a similar situation if you're charging an electric car and you drive it more just because you have free fuel.

[Nereus]

That posted article does not really make it clear: without a battery bank the invertor is called a "grid tied" inverter, regardless of whether or not it is a hybrid. It is called "grid tied" because it cannot function without a connection to the Thai power grid, PEA or MEA.

The mains power fails and it stops working! You are now in the dark and your refrigerator is starting to defrost!

In addition, the local PEA system is well known for regular blackouts, plus voltage spikes and under voltage. It is far from a stable supply! I doubt that the PEA will replace your blown up invertor because of their crappy supply!

It is a given that EGAT generated electicity will continue to increase in cost. By just how much is what is unknown! Although some attempts have been made in some areas to improve the infrastructure of the distubution system, in most areas it does not keep up with consumer growth. We still hear reports of transformers blowing up, and power lines falling down.

My advice is: the only way to have a reliable solar system is to go completely "off grid". If you cannot afford a quaility battery bank, then you should wait until you can. It may even be a better option to just have a small battey bank, and buy a small generator to maintain the batteries in the event of a prolonged weather situation that lowers the solar output. Solar panels, and a second invertor, can be added in the future as savings from solar become available.

note: I am not connected wid any solar supplier!

[STEVE G]

Solar panels, and a second invertor, can be added in the future as savings from solar become available...

I'm glad you highlighted this problem with grid tied inverters and power outages because I wasn't aware of that.
I've been having a read on the net and it seems a second inverter is a cost effective way of at least having power during the day. I'm looking at solar on my partners shop and I'm not sure that it justifies the cost of batteries.

[Suua]

That posted article does not really make it clear: without a battery bank the invertor is called a "grid tied" inverter, regardless of whether or not it is a hybrid. It is called "grid tied" because it cannot function without a connection to the Thai power grid, PEA or MEA.

The mains power fails and it stops working! You are now in the dark and your refrigerator is starting to defrost!

In addition, the local PEA system is well known for regular blackouts, plus voltage spikes and under voltage. It is far from a stable supply! I doubt that the PEA will replace your blown up invertor because of their crappy supply!

It is a given that EGAT generated electicity will continue to increase in cost. By just how much is what is unknown! Although some attempts have been made in some areas to improve the infrastructure of the distubution system, in most areas it does not keep up with consumer growth. We still hear reports of transformers blowing up, and power lines falling down.

My advice is: the only way to have a reliable solar system is to go completely "off grid". If you cannot afford a quaility battery bank, then you should wait until you can. It may even be a better option to just have a small battey bank, and buy a small generator to maintain the batteries in the event of a prolonged weather situation that lowers the solar output. Solar panels, and a second invertor, can be added in the future as savings from solar become available.

note: I am not connected wid any solar supplier!

Hello Nereus,

Yes, the 'on-Grid' or 'Grid tied' inverters, stop/cut out, when the power grid is lost.
This is intentional and is purely for safety reasons.
For example, if the grid power is lost, it could be that PEA are doing maintenance work and have turned off the supply intentionally.
The last thing they need is someone's 'grid tied' inverter pumping 230V back out onto the cables and electrocuting their staff.......so that is why the inverter cuts out if grid power is lost.

Things are slightly different with Hybrid inverters.

If you have a hybrid inverter, but don't have batteries connected in the solar system, it too will shut off when the grid is lost......for the same reasons outlined above.

If you have a hybrid inverter AND batteries connected, the system will not shut down when the grid is lost.
But will not kill any staff working on the cables outside.

It is also worth noting that your inverter, be it 'on-grid' or 'on-grid-Hybrid' will not be affected by power outages from PEA.
They have electronic protection to avoid this scenario.
Perhaps there are some 'lesser quality' inverters that may be susceptible to varying PEA voltages, but as everything in life, 'you get for what you pay'.

[KhunLA]

Couple thoughts of recent replies about ROI. I don't think we use any more since we have solar, although I state we abuse the AC a lot. Do think we use it more than many, and probably less than many, and it's on whether we're in the house or not, unless out of town of course. No different usage when we didn't have solar.

Bedroom 24/7, as that's where laptop & TV/monitor is. and the main part of house, basically large eat in kitchen. With the dog's area in between, foyer/entrance, where her sofa is. That part, AC on from 0800 till sunset, when we retire to bedroom.

We'll hit 1000kWh this month again, and would be a ฿5000 PEA bill. Old house at Udon Thani, and we hit ฿5000 bills for the same type of usage. So no real change, except the EVs.

Add the petrol saving, and ROI is very fast.

Another major plus, no outages, though they are very rare here, like almost never, vs Udon Thani, where they were weekly. Solar also provides a steady current, making our electronics last longer. Again, Udon Thani, and it use to fluctuate 150-250v, which wreaks havoc on electronics.

Not having ESS / battery back up or being off grid, and one solution till you can spring for batteries, would be an EV as your next car, as you can run your mandatory items (frigs & fans) off the car, as man come with V2L (vehicle to load) capabilities, and come with a plug for that. One forum member elsewhere even went so far as to make a plug into his breaker box. Once done, a bit more convenient than simply running an extension cord off the V2L cable. He is completely off grid.

When we are on a O&A (out & about), the house only uses <4kWh a day. So less than 10% of the EV's battery if power was to be out for 24 hrs. That would be running 2 frigs & 1 light. Outdoor lighting is already solar.

I've only used my V2L cable just to test it, make sure it works:

[Nereus]

Yes, the 'on-Grid' or 'Grid tied' inverters, stop/cut out, when the power grid is lost.
This is intentional and is purely for safety reasons.

Ah, no, it is nothing to do with safety. To operate, an inverter of any flavour, needs a reference frequency. Grid tied inverters get their reference from the mains supply; off grid battery tied inverters generate their own interenal reference source. (from the battery voltage)

Feed back to the grid is prevented by the reverse current characteristic of the inverters; again because they do not have a reference source, they cannot conduct.

[Nereus]

Solar panels, and a second invertor, can be added in the future as savings from solar become available...

I'm glad you highlighted this problem with grid tied inverters and power outages because I wasn't aware of that.
I've been having a read on the net and it seems a second inverter is a cost effective way of at least having power during the day. I'm looking at solar on my partners shop and I'm not sure that it justifies the cost of batteries.

I should have added the proviso that not ALL inverters can be connected in parallel. You just need to make sure that what you buy has that option.
BUT, you still need a battery, see my other post. It does not have to be a big bank, but most inverters are better run on 48 volts, or at least 24 volts. So a couple of big 12 volt 200 Ah truck batteries connected in series would at least keep the lights on.

[Suua]

Yes, the 'on-Grid' or 'Grid tied' inverters, stop/cut out, when the power grid is lost.
This is intentional and is purely for safety reasons.

Ah, no, it is nothing to do with safety. To operate, an inverter of any flavour, needs a reference frequency. Grid tied inverters get their reference from the mains supply; off grid battery tied inverters generate their own interenal reference source. (from the battery voltage)

Feed back to the grid is prevented by the reverse current characteristic of the inverters; again because they do not have a reference source, they cannot conduct.

This is the last time I will comment on this, but I think this is very important.
Visit https://www.solar-electric.com/learning ... 20entirely.

In the text there is this......which explains all.

In the United States (and most of the rest of the world), all inverters that back-feed the grid must conform with “anti-islanding” requirements. Anti-islanding simply means that the inverter stops grid-feed-in when the grid experiences abnormal conditions (frequency/voltage) and/or in the event there is a complete power outage. The purpose of this is to protect line workers or electricians who may be trying to make repairs to the grid. This is mandated for all grid-tie systems.

This is important for people to understand, which is why I responded.

[STEVE G]

Solar panels, and a second invertor, can be added in the future as savings from solar become available...

I'm glad you highlighted this problem with grid tied inverters and power outages because I wasn't aware of that.
I've been having a read on the net and it seems a second inverter is a cost effective way of at least having power during the day. I'm looking at solar on my partners shop and I'm not sure that it justifies the cost of batteries.

I should have added the proviso that not ALL inverters can be connected in parallel. You just need to make sure that what you buy has that option.
BUT, you still need a battery, see my other post. It does not have to be a big bank, but most inverters are better run on 48 volts, or at least 24 volts. So a couple of big 12 volt 200 Ah truck batteries connected in series would at least keep the lights on.

Ok thanks for the information, the people from the Solar company are coming around soon and will quote options and I'll see if a small battery backup is an viable choice.

[KhunLA]

I'm glad you highlighted this problem with grid tied inverters and power outages because I wasn't aware of that.
I've been having a read on the net and it seems a second inverter is a cost effective way of at least having power during the day. I'm looking at solar on my partners shop and I'm not sure that it justifies the cost of batteries.

I should have added the proviso that not ALL inverters can be connected in parallel. You just need to make sure that what you buy has that option.
BUT, you still need a battery, see my other post. It does not have to be a big bank, but most inverters are better run on 48 volts, or at least 24 volts. So a couple of big 12 volt 200 Ah truck batteries connected in series would at least keep the lights on.

Ok thanks for the information, the people from the Solar company are coming around soon and will quote options and I'll see if a small battery backup is an viable choice.

Stick with 48v