For those that were here during my first post (as Lost) you'll know that I suffer from mental health issues from time to time. Have done since a kid. Worse as an adult. Some good days, some bad days and some days that can't be categorised.
Anyone with a smidgen of interest would be able to identify this by the way I post.
Got me thinking. Why are mental health issues so normal right now. I'm probably less than half the age of most posters here. To be fair, the entire world's population is most likely less than half the age of the forum members here...
But.
We suffered no wars. No hardship. No rations growing up. No blitz. The younger generation (0s to 50's) has had a pretty easy life in comparison to the older folk. So why the increase in serious mental health issues? People struggling to cope.
Is it simply that, back in the day it was there but the tough British took their daily tablets of 'a stiff upper lip and silence'?
Or is there something being put in the fuckings water recently?
I don't trust children. They're here to replace us.
Lost wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:23 pm
So why the increase in serious mental health issues? People struggling to cope.
Is it simply that, back in the day it was there but the tough British took their daily tablets of 'a stiff upper lip and silence'?
Good question. I think if we're honest we've all had mental health problems to some degree at one point in our lives (at least).
With previous generations, I don't think it was a question of toughness or stiff upper lip, but more a lack of awareness, information, and education on the subject and a lack of options in terms of diagnosis and therapy.
I didn't realise you had experienced such problems, perhaps you joined as Lost during my year away from the forum, and I hope it doesn't stop you enjoying life and will pass.
From what I know of you in your incarnations on the forum, you're not looking for sympathy (so I won't give you any! ). Dammit, I hope this doesn't mean I have to be nice to you all the time!
I think back in the day it was there, but not recognized. I believe there are many current issues that, in the past just were not identified (ADHD comes to mind).
It may not have been a "stiff upper lip" approach, just the people afflicted were ignored to unfortunate consequences.
Wish you the best of luck
The proper function of man is to live, not to exist. I shall not waste my days in trying to prolong them. I shall use my time.
I agree. Mental health today has become a very complex illness and is treated in many different ways. My son was diagnosed with bi-polar (known as manic depression in the past) some years ago. He was being treated for years in Thailand. After returning to the UK, his doctor told him that the meds he was being fed here only made the situation worse. He's fine now and hasn't had a problem since being given the correct meds.
What I'm getting at is there are so many different forms of mental health and each has to be treated accordingly.
As migrant said, in the past it just wasn't recognised. To put it simply, you were either sane or not. If not then a course of electric shock treatment was believed to sort it out. 'One remedy fits all!' Thankfully we know better now.
As a young 16 yr old fairly innocent Police cadet part of our attachments were with the Health service. I had a 2 week stint in my local hospitals psychiatric unit I took part in a few ECT (shock treatment) procedures, the strange thing was that a lot of the patients seemed to look forward to it.
I always remember what one of the doctors in the unit said to me about depression. He told me to think about when I felt down or depressed then real medical depression is 100 times worse than I felt.
Fast forward some 30 years after mostly seeing the worst society has to offer one is bound to carry a certain amount of emotional baggage and there have been lots of times when I have taken that "black dog" for a walk, a feeling shared by most of my ex colleagues that I am still in contact with but I always remember what that doctor said to that naive 16 yr old cadet which does help to put the dog back in the kennel.
Also, I think back to my parents and grand parents generation where the feeling was " Be thankful for what you've got." Nowadays it seems to be more "Be envious of what you haven't got and others have." which can lead to negative thoughts.
Lost, I'm sure you know this but you answers do not lie at looking at life through the bottom of beer bottle, alcohol is a depressant and will exacerbate your problems. easy to say but a damn sight harder to do.
Maybe you should also consider supporting another football team because with Jose at the helm things will get a lot worse
Good luck.
“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”
― George Carlin
“The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.” -George Orwell.
I find this a very interesting topic, but one that makes me quite hesitant. My views on this subject have got me into trouble more than once. So I will tread very carefully….
I won’t lie and pretend I know what depression or any other MH issues feels like. I haven’t lead a charmed life (far from it), but I have been blessed with the ability to bounce back (resilience? ) and good mental health.
Many of the people closest to me do however suffer various mental health issues. Everything from anxiety, depression, addictions, bi polar to personality disorders.
What I see time and time again is… I find myself strongly disagreeing with how those people are “helped” by their psychologists and MH support workers. I would go as far as to say the help they are offered is more damaging than helpful.
I like a shoulder to cry on as much as the next person. There absolutely needs to be a place for validation of the negative things we’re feeling, or the crap that life's throwing at us.
But there also comes a time when a kick up the backside is needed.
What I see all too often is, people go into therapy and they get all the validation in the world… but resilience is not addressed at all. The kick up the backside never comes. It's all carrot and no stick.
Arghhh this is so difficult to articulate….
I got in to a very heated discussion with the psychologist treating a loved one when I was asked to sit in on their session…. the row was after loved one said something along the lines of “I just feel no one likes or loves me”. I know for a fact this is totally wrong, this person is loved. So I said “well you know that feeling is wrong, you know that you are loved by many and widely liked”. To which the psychologist butted in to tell me, in no uncertain terms, that I wasn’t being helpful at all, that feelings are just feelings and they can’t ever be wrong, and by saying what I said I was invalidating loved one’s feelings, that it would be more helpful to just say something like “I understand this is how you feel”.
Sorry, that is not just utter bullshit. But it is very damaging bullshit. An anorexic might feel fat, but they are deathly skinny. An OCD sufferer might feel bad things will happen to them if they don’t clean the sink 5 times in a clockwise direction after washing their hands for the 27th time that hour. But it is wrong. The feeling *is* wrong.
I feel that as a society we are guided ever more by mental health professionals along the path of “just be kind, don’t invalidate feelings, just offer support, just offer understanding, don’t use words like “wrong” or “illogical”…. And that is all fine and well… but I firmly believe that a kick up the backside after the tea, sympathy and shoulder to cry on, is vital too.
I find the professional help offered to loved ones has just enabled them to carry on along a negative mental pathway. In one instance, spanning a period of about three years, and 20 odd sessions of group therapy, about 130 sessions of one on one therapy, and maybe 20 sessions including the loved one’s close family… I found it did far more harm than good. Said love done is now about 7 years further, in a damn site better place mentally, and actually agrees that the “help” given by professionals actually made matters worse.
Yes in the past we got it completely wrong… the “oh just pull your socks up and get on with it” line of course is not helpful to anyone, neither is sweeping things under the carpet. But I feel the pendulum has swung way too far in the other direction and we are way too quick to validate and agree with and embrace the ??? can I say “crazy” without offending?
A perfect example of this can be seen with how gender dysphoria in children and teenagers is currently viewed and “treated” by mental health professionals in the western world. 6 years old Johnny feels like a girl and likes playing with a doll? The mental health pros are falling over themselves to facilitate Little Johnny growing his hair, wearing a dress to school and changing his name to Joanna. And, it doesn’t just stop there, the mental health professionals are the people advising governments and schools to embrace little Joanna as her feelings after all are completely valid. Fcuk, at that age I thought I was Black Beauty (a horse from a kiddy’s tv program) and my brother thought he as a dalek (a robot-y thing from a sci-fi program). It’s what kids do, they fantasize. The roles of MH professionals in this current “gender debate” leaves me utterly cold, especially when it involves young children.
I remember a previous wife who suffered from Post Natal Depression which over time led to clinical depression. Her doctor told me that she was suffering from depression.
"I get depressed but I don't act like she's doing!" I said.
"No. You just get pissed off. Entirely different." She snapped back.
Im fortunate that I don’t ever recall feeling really depressed so I can’t talk from experience, but what you have said MDMK seems to make a lot of sense - I’m sure a helping hand is sometimes needed and a steer/push in the right direction, but some of these so called “experts” seem to be completely away from reality
It's not that the feelings are right or wrong, it's how we interpret and act on those feelings. Some people respond to empathy and some to discipline, some to kindness and others a "kick up the backside." There's no one size fits all and good therapist (I've known a few) will find out what the client needs and work with that. Lying on a couch for 20 hrs. doesn't work, it just leads you deeper into your own mess and shock therapy creates it's own mess. I've had 2 friends turn into walking vegetables through that. It's a complex subject with no one size fits all answer. Sometimes therapy helps some people and sometimes not. Sometimes it's better to try and find out if it works for you, rather than sit and stare at the wall or punch holes in it.
handdrummer wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:49 am
It's not that the feelings are right or wrong, it's how we interpret and act on those feelings. Some people respond to empathy and some to discipline, some to kindness and others a "kick up the backside." There's no one size fits all and good therapist (I've known a few) will find out what the client needs and work with that. Lying on a couch for 20 hrs. doesn't work, it just leads you deeper into your own mess and shock therapy creates it's own mess. I've had 2 friends turn into walking vegetables through that. It's a complex subject with no one size fits all answer. Sometimes therapy helps some people and sometimes not. Sometimes it's better to try and find out if it works for you, rather than sit and stare at the wall or punch holes in it.
see that ^ I would never have had issues with. As your whole paragraph makes perfect sense. My experience is more of the "I've had 2 friends turn into walking vegetables through that" variety.
I also agree that there are good psychologists out there, I just sincerely doubt they have contracts with either the UK or the NL health providers. I feel the level we get is frighteningly low, the leftovers, the psychs who couldn't get a better paying job elsewhere. It really is dismal.
The Hippocratic oath states (paraphrasing here) "first, do no harm" - and that is exactly what I think psychologists do. A lot of them do it, granted not all. And they do it often. And they get away with it. And not just the bottom of the barrel types contracted to work for the NHS or NL Health insurers. Take a look at some of the so called "world renowned experts" on the gender identity issue, and tell me that's not damaging.
In the past I strongly encouraged loved ones to seek out a psychologist. I honestly believed in my heart (and head) that while it might not help, it certainly wouldn't do any harm. I was very wrong. It can do a LOT of damage. That is what I have issue with. On the other hand, some of the best books I have ever read are self-help books written by "good" psychs. I just fear the good psychs are priced out of the market for the average Joe (or Joanna).
I just fear the good psychs are priced out of the market for the average Joe (or Joanna).
That's the truth.
I only know about Psychologists in the US.
I agree with everything else you said.
Also you have to separate the Psychologists from the Psychiatrists, the latter does the most damage, mainly by prescribing drugs and following the Freudian line. Gestalt Psychologists, on the other hand, actively engage with people and can be very confrontive. All of the work is done in the first person, present tense, so you have to confront yourself, your fears, fantasies, imaginings and views of reality. It can be scary and cathartic.
If your interested, 2 books, in paperback , are: Fritz Perls; In and out of the Garbage Pail and Gestalt Therapy Verbatim by several practitioners, giving you actual dialogue.
I think you're being a little unfair. I haven't re-read your first response, but I think you agree one size doesn't fit all. Also I agree there is an element of trial and error. However, they can't x-ray the brain and say, "That's what's needed." There is a lot of trial and error.
During the trial and error stage, yes, patients often enter a vegetative state, but it is only by working out what doesn't work, that they realise what will work.
I don't know if I'm the common denominator , but I've been unfortunate to experience serious mental illness in work colleagues, friends and family. Every one has had to go through the trial and error (sometimes up to 2 years), but the medics do get there in the end. So long as the patient regularly takes their medication, they live perfectly normal lives.
I liken it to a serious operation - OK, it's the opposite with the operation/cure first followed by a long recuperation period, but every illness takes time to recover from. It can be heartbreaking to see people who were full of beans a few weeks ago walking around like a vegetable, but the docs get there and they always, in my experience, do a good job.
Handrummer, one of the main difference I think between psychology here, and psychology in the states is...
I understand in the states it's very common to find a psychologist who, while they might dip their toes into varied areas, they tend to specialise in one particular area.... say in grief therapy, or anxiety issues, or couples therapy, or trauma issues, or abuse issues, or family therapy.
Here (NL and UK) they tend to be more a "Jack of all trades, master of none" kind of approach. So you get, first appointment of the day is Betty and John with their marriage problems, followed by a woman grieving the loss of her child, followed by a soldier experiencing PTSD after a stint in Afghanistan, followed by a bipolar patient, followed by someone with chronic sleep issues, followed by a young woman with an eating disorder. There is no (or very very little) "triage" to see which patient would be best suited to which therapist, it's more "Oh so and so can see you Friday at 4pm" and that's who you end up with. So and so had a free slot at Friday 4pm, so whether the next person who phones has an eating disorder, chronic depression, or complex PTSD.... they'll be seeing the psych with the free slot.
The only real distinction we seem to have in psychology is... children v adults.
And yes, I suppose when a patient gets "very bad" then more specialized help can be accessed. Say for instance the alcoholic that has battled the bottle for years, when/if the shit really hits the fan, then you might be lucky enough to get more specialized addiction therapy when you go into rehab. Or any kind of "stay in hospital" is likely to find you with a psychologist who has more of a clue to your specific issues than you would just going along to a 9 to 5 psychology practice of the "jack of all trades, master of none" variety.
I have no idea how good or bad the psychiatrists here are... one family member was referred to a psychiatrist by their psychologist, as the latter thought anti-depressants would help. I went along to the appointment with them, just sat in the waiting room - one appointment only and no antidepressants were prescribed. Mind you, any GP will prescribe antidepressants (and I guess other psych drugs too) without a psychiatrist ever being consulted.
The psych I mentioned above (the feelings can never be wrong psych) - from talking with the family member who was in the therapy, and sitting in one a couple of sessions, I had a strong feeling this psych was wayyyy out of her depth with this family members issues. So I just came out and pointedly asked "how many hours a week on average do you spend with patients suffering from this particular issue?". The reply was shocking, she literally was clueless (and experience-less) with the issue at hand, despite around 20 years fulltime in the job.
I found myself half-wishing and half-dreading that the family member would hit rock bottom and be admitted to a psych ward, just so they could finally access the more specialized help they so obviously needed.
I still feel you are being harsh, but, "I have no idea how good or bad the psychiatrists here are.." tells me you are at the trial and error stage, and that isn't pretty. I've been involved with a few in the UK, and have helped a few Expats here - it isn't easy finding the right balance (or the right doctor), but they get there.
MDMK, yes, in the US, mental health is a specialized field with nooks and crannies for every type of specialist. No one can handle everything, there isn't enough time in one's life to know every field.
BB, I know people who didn't come out well on the other end, despite several years of therapy and drugs.
Sometimes they work, sometimes it becomes a lifetime of drugs and a diminished life. True, they are no longer depressed but they are no longer a fully emotionally functioning human being. Maybe, for them, that's the best solution. I can't judge that.
). Dammit, I hope this doesn't mean I have to be nice to you all the time! 
, but I've been unfortunate to experience serious mental illness in work colleagues, friends and family. Every one has had to go through the trial and error (sometimes up to 2 years), but the medics do get there in the end. So long as the patient regularly takes their medication, they live perfectly normal lives.