UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by caller » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:16 pm

uncle tom wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:20 pm
However, if you don't acknowledge that you are living permanently in Thailand - which is not dishonest, because what is 'permanent' and events might make you wish to return.. - and if asked directly, state that you are currently enjoying an extended holiday, again being careful with words, but not dishonest.

If you keep your principal bank account in the UK, have a UK mailing address and also make the occasional trip back to renew your passport, for example; and also don't attempt to make yourself UK tax exempt. If you are careful not to plaster your luxury home, Thai wife and second family all over social media.

- It's hard to see how they could 'prove' that you had become permanently resident..
What you are claiming is dishonest and fraudulent and liable to get anyone caught dealt with more severely than if they hadn't told such lies.

No disrespect, but you clearly have no great knowledge of this subject matter, whereas I do, or did, before I retired.

This is a well known and targetted fraud. To counter it, regular data matching takes place and any investigation could involve access to bank acounts, full credit rating checks, visits to the alleged UK address, thus embarrasing relatives, friends or whatever and if decided to deal with as a non criminal matter (bearing in mind some pensioners have been jailed for this scam), then a decision is reached based on the balance of probabilities. Any overpayment is recovered from an ongoing pension, if not fully repaid at the time of death, in many instances, they will still seek to recover losses from any estate.

And you'd be susrpised how many folk out there don't like such scams and loose tongues can cost. So many on-line way's to refer a suspected fraud these days.
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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by HHTel » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:08 pm

Thanks caller. Spot on!

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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by uncle tom » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:14 am

No disrespect, but you clearly have no great knowledge of this subject matter, whereas I do, or did, before I retired.
Well in that case, could you point me to the relevant statutes or instruments that define this?

Official advice on the subject seems very vague and reliant on a self declaration that one has no intention of ever returning, and whilst that is sometimes the case, many who retire to warmer climes recognise that when they pass 80, the cost of healthcare may well propel them back to the NHS - in which event it is certainly not dishonest to say one has not emigrated, given the dictionary definition of the word.
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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by HHTel » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:39 am

You'll find all the info within www.gov.uk
many who retire to warmer climes recognise that when they pass 80, the cost of healthcare may well propel them back to the NHS
Returning to the UK to 'resettle' gives back all the benefits of being a resident like access to the NHS. You have to state that you are returning to settle in the UK. You'll also find this in www.gov.uk

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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by Gregjam » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:51 am

This does throw up the question yet again of residency. I know there are people who have a PR visa status but they seem few and far between. Most are on a Non Imm O-A 90 day reporting, annual renewal type visa. Is this residency? If you maintain a UK presence i.e. an address (your kids), bank account, electoral roll, registered at the doctors etc and possibly propertly (rented out), that would probably satisfy UK residency and lack of intent for the Thailand place to be a permanent residence.
I am not yet retired and thanks to the changes will not be entitled to UK pension until I am 67 so like most have no bad feelings about trying to get as much as I am allowed considering my input over the years and the way the government seem to throw money at those who have never put in a penny (or are even resident or intend to be). (Sorry, rant over).
My own approach looking to the future is one of stay in Thailand until health or otherwise dictates a move back to the UK. Perhaps the UK government should consider that we save them money as while here we pay for our own doctors visits for minor ailments and generally do not cost them anything unless or until we return. The standard pension is not much but it all helps.

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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by HHTel » Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:16 am

f you maintain a UK presence i.e. an address (your kids), bank account, electoral roll, registered at the doctors etc and possibly propertly (rented out), that would probably satisfy UK residency
It's not that easy. If you maintain an address in the UK and shown on an electoral register, then you are liable for council tax as well as other complications.
You’re automatically resident if either:

you spent 183 or more days in the UK in the tax year
your only home was in the UK - you must have owned, rented or lived in it for at least 91 days in total - and you spent at least 30 days there in the tax year

You’re automatically non-resident if either:

you spent fewer than 16 days in the UK (or 46 days if you haven’t been classed as UK resident for the 3 previous tax years)
you work abroad full-time (averaging at least 35 hours a week) and spent fewer than 91 days in the UK, of which no more than 30 were spent working
Source: www.gov.uk

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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by HHTel » Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:22 am

Perhaps the UK government should consider that we save them money as while here we pay for our own doctors visits for minor ailments and generally do not cost them anything unless or until we return.
I agree in principle. However their argument would be that you are taking and spending money earned/issued in the UK outside of the country thereby giving no benefit to the UK and therefore the UK should not be obliged to give 'you' any benefit.

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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by Gregjam » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:20 am

Good points made and in my situation I will see what develops over the next ten years as it no doubt will change and unlikely for the better.
The thread has expanded a bit from it's original point but in an interesting way and some excellent information has been presented. I do wonder about the system when the cost of administering these adjustments is probably more than if they had just written them off in most cases. Acknowledge them yes and adjust for any over or under payments (with compensation if needed) but as unfair as it is for those who have benefited, recovery should only take place if it is cost efficient.

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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by Big Boy » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:33 am

I have been talking with ex-colleagues in the UK. Their take is that there is a problem. Overpayments will not be re-claimed, but pension payments will be corrected.

Most of us would have known approximately what pension we would have been entitled to, so I guess any adjustment either upwards or downwards will not be earth shattering. I don't see it as a problem.
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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by migrant » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:41 am

That's good that repayments are not needed. In the US the equivalent, social security, is brutal when an overpayment is detected, wanting their money back now!
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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by Big Boy » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:27 am

Not 100% certain, but it looks as though individually amounts are so trivial, its cheaper to write it off.
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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by StevePIraq » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:45 am

uncle tom wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:14 pm
Why does anyone entitled to a state pension ever admit to leaving the UK?

Not hard to find an address to have mail sent to, and the powers-that-be have very little idea where people are..
Of course they know where you are. I have never advised the UK authorities that I left the UK in 1982, however HMRC have wrote to my address here (I assume advised via Thai Immigration), my address in Australia, my address in South Africa, countries share all of your information.


They also track via your passport and countries entered.
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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by Dannie Boy » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:28 pm

I think UT should stick to his area of expertise!!

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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by caller » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:30 pm

Interesting responses.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... -and-error

State pension fraud is not a sanctionable offence. That means it cannot be stopped or reduced because an offence has been committed (unlike benefit fraud). But any overpayment can and is recovered from ongoing payments, as is the norm. In certain circumstance, prosecution will be considered.

Don't look too deeply into the legislation, it is easy to be confused by legal jargon. Just use commom sense. The rules state (in a roundabout way) that you will not get an annual increase in your UK state pension if you live in Thailand. That's widely and commonly known and understood.

If when claiming your state pension, you fail to declare your true circumstances, i.e. that you are living in Thailand and not somewhere in the UK, you are committing a criminal offence. If you legitimately claim your state pension in the UK and then move to Thailand and fail to truthfully declare your change of circumstances, you are committing a criminal offence. There is specific legistation under the social security act to cover both of these circumstances.

That's it. Anything else is hot air.

Interesting story here from the Express which quotes the DWP stating the recent value of 'abroad fraud' was 94 million.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/86940 ... -years-old
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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by dundrillin » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:01 pm

That makes it crystal clear.
. Unfortunately a career lifetime of paying NI contributions gives you less rights than someone who hasn't.

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