Pros and Cons of Colonization

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europtimiste
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Re: Pros and Cons of Colonization

Post by europtimiste » Mon May 28, 2018 4:55 pm

dtaai-maai wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 5:08 pm
Europtimiste, I'm sure everyone understands exactly what you mean, but the simple fact is that you're wrong. You can't use the fact that English isn't your native language, as the words and their meanings are virtually identical in French.

This is not a matter of words games: occupation is not identical to colonisation. The former may become the latter in time, but it needs an awful lot longer than 2 or 3 years. The purpose is not necessarily the same either; the only reason the Japanese occupied Thailand was to gain access to other Asian countries. Had they won the war, their occupation might well have evolved into colonisation, but they didn't.

We are getting closer, yes if not identical as I said purpose is same. French occupation in Algeria started at 1830 and was colonized at 1834.

It really is that simple.

Of course, your general attitude on this forum doesn't encourage a high level of patience, sympathy and understanding... :cheers:
I have the right to express my opinion alike all others and my general attitude id not worse than many others.

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404cameljockey
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Re: Pros and Cons of Colonization

Post by 404cameljockey » Tue May 29, 2018 9:58 am

oakdale160 wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 8:12 am
Perhaps an Aussie could comment on Oz and its convict past. I believe that it is now thought that the importance of its convict influence has been overstated. At the time that the last convict ship arrived in Aus the population was about a million. The total number of convicts imported was 168,000
I guess you could say that the USA's founding father roots are also now not of any consequence then? It doesn't still shape the feelings and aspirations of a large part of the country? I can't be the judge, just asking the question.

I'm not a digger (Australian) but can assure you that they are proud of their lawless roots. Ned Kelly is their national hero (I prefer Sir Les Patterson myself).

Brits call them diggers, convicts, chainrattlers and so on, it's harmless fun. They call us all manner of things and often not in fun!

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Re: Pros and Cons of Colonization

Post by oakdale160 » Tue May 29, 2018 10:08 am

There is a wonderful book--The Fatal Shore by Robert Hughes--An account of the whole transportation day. It is hard to read the cruelties are horrific. He makes some conclusions about modern Aus attitudes--their refusal to respect their "superiors" their love of slang, an alternative language to fool the guards.
Hughes went on to be the art and culture Editor for TIME, imagine an Aus as the authority of art and culture. Good on ya, mate.

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404cameljockey
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Re: Pros and Cons of Colonization

Post by 404cameljockey » Tue May 29, 2018 10:24 am

Haha. Well, they do have quite a nice opera house.

Treatment of wrongdoers was brutal in all countries. Better in Britain than say in Spain though. Anywhere though you'd get hanging for stealing an apple. Or years sitting in a rat infested prison hulk in the River Thames or Portsmouth. Transportation would have been an option worth considering.

"Crimmins also writes of prisoners who obtained their release by volunteering to serve in the navy, and who found conditions so bad they petitioned to be returned to the hulks!"
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Re: Pros and Cons of Colonization

Post by StevePIraq » Tue May 29, 2018 2:52 pm

404cameljockey wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:58 am
oakdale160 wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 8:12 am
Perhaps an Aussie could comment on Oz and its convict past. I believe that it is now thought that the importance of its convict influence has been overstated. At the time that the last convict ship arrived in Aus the population was about a million. The total number of convicts imported was 168,000
I guess you could say that the USA's founding father roots are also now not of any consequence then? It doesn't still shape the feelings and aspirations of a large part of the country? I can't be the judge, just asking the question.

I'm not a digger (Australian) but can assure you that they are proud of their lawless roots. Ned Kelly is their national hero (I prefer Sir Les Patterson myself).

Brits call them diggers, convicts, chainrattlers and so on, it's harmless fun. They call us all manner of things and often not in fun!
When I lived in Oz I used love having a dig at them when they lost at rugby or cricket, one thing for sure is that Aussies are not good losers.
"Live everyday as if it were your last because someday you're going to be right." Muhammad Ali

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Re: Pros and Cons of Colonization

Post by handdrummer » Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:39 pm

No one likes to lose. Does anyone love a good loser? What's the virtue in being a good loser? Most of the time the winner rubs the losers nose in it and the loser is supposed to be a good loser? I think not.

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Re: Pros and Cons of Colonization

Post by Homer » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:48 pm

europtimiste wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 1:52 pm
Dannie Boy wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 12:55 pm
europtimiste wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 12:30 pm


A colonization starts wit military occupation. Japanese lost and had no time to colonize.
so you agree that Thailand wasn’t colonized
Let's go, we can indefinitely play with the words. You love that on this forum.......
Playing all y'all want won't change that you don't know the difference between colonization and a colonic.

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Re: Pros and Cons of Colonization

Post by Bamboo Grove » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:59 pm

Homer, I don't even understand what you want to say.
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Re: Pros and Cons of Colonization

Post by Homer » Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:05 pm

oakdale160 wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 8:12 am
At the time that the last convict ship arrived in Aus the population was about a million. The total number of convicts imported was 168,000
Aussies didn't wait until the last convict ship arrived to began creating a culture. What was the convict VS non-convict population numbers after the First Fleet arrived? That's who began creating Australia and its culture.

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Bamboo Grove
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Re: Pros and Cons of Colonization

Post by Bamboo Grove » Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:39 pm

Playing all y'all want won't change that you don't know the difference between colonization and a colonic.
I was thinking about this. I've no idea what you want to say. Sorry.
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Re: Pros and Cons of Colonization

Post by HHTel » Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:15 pm

Colonic irrigation???...lol

I think he was trying to say 'difference between colonisation and occupied land, as France was among others.

It was almost 10pm!!

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Re: Pros and Cons of Colonization

Post by oakdale160 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:39 am

British colonization was often privatized. India, for instance, was "colonized" by the East India Company. It was given the"franchise" to exploit India. It had its own army but the object was not military or an attempt to civilize, it was ALL business. It established transportation, a legal system, some schools and hospitals but its motivation was always the bottom line.

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404cameljockey
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Re: Pros and Cons of Colonization

Post by 404cameljockey » Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:27 am

oakdale160 wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:39 am
British colonization was often privatized. India, for instance, was "colonized" by the East India Company. It was given the"franchise" to exploit India. It had its own army but the object was not military or an attempt to civilize, it was ALL business. It established transportation, a legal system, some schools and hospitals but its motivation was always the bottom line.
You are talking about the early days, of course, when France and England were at war in India over trade; the Karnatic Wars in the mid-18th century (The Dutch had already been limited to Indonesia). The French were kicked out (apart from being allowed trading posts), the British remained. All three sets of forces had trading charters from their governments, and they were not there to govern India, just to trade with it. As the Mughal Empire grew weaker, so the British had the cnace to establish a stronger fighting force there, in agreement with local rulers in each state (either fight us or allow us to garrison a small force; no choice at all really).

By the 19th century, the British network of alliances with local rulers to facilitate British assets in India (particularly the trades of the East India Company; tea to Europe and opium to China) had led to the EIC acquiring land directly under ‘Company Rule’ in India with the assent of the British Crown; this state of affairs ended in 1858 when the Crown assumed control of British India after the Sepoy Mutiny. It was in the 19th century that the British also introduced the Doctrine of Lapse among others, taking over and asserting influence over various princely states, either taking them over entirely or subjugating them as protectorates or client states to the British; eventually over almost the entirety of the Indian subcontinent, thus establishing the British Raj (Empire) in India.

Also you are ignoring the 'civilising missions' of many missionaries, particularly people like Willliam Carey. These people worked often under the disapproval of the EIC.But luckily for the world India has largely ignored monotheism, of all descriptions.

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Re: Pros and Cons of Colonization

Post by migrant » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:09 am

Bamboo Grove wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:39 pm
Playing all y'all want won't change that you don't know the difference between colonization and a colonic.
I was thinking about this. I've no idea what you want to say. Sorry.
I believe he was being sarcastic saying euro didn't know shit from shinola (does that translate across the pond)?
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laphanphon
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Re: Pros and Cons of Colonization

Post by laphanphon » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:41 am

In reality, there really isn't an 'pros' for colonization, unless you are the invading force.
col·o·ni·za·tion
noun
the action or process of settling among and establishing control over the indigenous people of an area.

verb
"colonization"
the action of appropriating a place or domain for one's own use.
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