Japan 8.8 Earthquake

[PeteC]

↑ My guess is poverty, education and group moral mentality is so much different between the two. Pete

[PeteC]

The quake has now been upgraded to a 9.0 by both the Japanese and the USGS. Pete

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110314/ap_ ... _magnitude

[PeteC]

With all disasters like this there will be stories of hero's that we'll probably never read. I'm sure there are some right now battling whatever is going on inside those nuclear plants who already know they are dead men walking. It takes a special kind of person to put himself or herself in danger like that for the common good. Pete

[Takiap]

↑ My guess is poverty, education and group moral mentality is so much different between the two. Pete

Hey Pete, you are a truly gifted spin doctor

[pharvey]

With all disasters like this there will be stories of hero's that we'll probably never read. I'm sure there are some right now battling whatever is going on inside those nuclear plants who already know they are dead men walking. It takes a special kind of person to put himself or herself in danger like that for the common good. Pete

Unfortunately it seems likely there be a lot of talk over the ''villains'' of Japan's nuclear energy also... although how exactly you are supposed to protect against a 9.0 earthquake that shifts the island by 2.4m

Japan was warned more than two years ago by the international nuclear watchdog that its nuclear power plants were not capable of withstanding powerful earthquakes, leaked diplomatic cables reveal.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -show.html

[Korkenzieher]

Japan was warned more than two years ago by the international nuclear watchdog that its nuclear power plants were not capable of withstanding powerful earthquakes, leaked diplomatic cables reveal.

I'm sure you can dig stuff up like this all over the place. Warning people, of probably considerably greater expertise, of what was a fairly abstract danger, 30 years after they went operational smacks of hubris, to be honest.

The only way you can test for earthquakes of that magnitude really, is to build it, and wait...

[STEVE G]

It's interesting to see that one of those leaked cables refers to a court case where local people had called for the closure of a different nuclear power station on the basis of the fact that it wasn't designed to resist earthquakes of the maximum level that could occur in the area where it was built.

[Korkenzieher]

Maybe, but as has been quite widely pointed out, the plant did in fact withstand the earthquake, and did shut down as designed. The problem has been that the redundant plant powering the cooling systems was compromised by the tsunami. OK so in some way that eventuality needs to be taken into account - but given that this is a 1 in a thousand year event, what *do* you plan for? The 1 in 10,000 or more? Sooner or later you get into the realm where there is a greater probability of an asteroid strike, so then where do you go?

If the only safe solution is not to use any kind of nuclear capability then somehow you have to replace all of that capacity and in a cold, wet, dark north hemisphere winter, a thousand miles from the ocean that pretty much right now means fossil fuels or vast tracts of land being given over to bio-fuels.

When the alternative is sitting in the darkness and cold, I suspect I know which lobby will win in the end. And that is nuclear.

[richard]

Better get my ark finished then although at the moment it seems to resemble something out of the movie 'Waterworld'

[STEVE G]

Maybe, but as has been quite widely pointed out, the plant did in fact withstand the earthquake, and did shut down as designed. The problem has been that the redundant plant powering the cooling systems was compromised by the tsunami. OK so in some way that eventuality needs to be taken into account - but given that this is a 1 in a thousand year event, what *do* you plan for? The 1 in 10,000 or more? Sooner or later you get into the realm where there is a greater probability of an asteroid strike, so then where do you go?

Yes, I'm not against nuclear power but I when you consider how much these power stations cost and how long they're in operation surely they should be built to the highest safety standards possible.
Considering this plant is now wrecked and even if the problem is contained will cost a fortune to maintain for years to come, perhaps building a higher tsunami wall in the first place would have been a good investment.

[pharvey]

When the alternative is sitting in the darkness and cold, I suspect I know which lobby will win in the end. And that is nuclear.

A little far fetched....... as far as Japan is concerned, one of the world's leaders in renewable energy, not to mention having 10% of the world's active volcanoes so surely geothermal energy would be a no-brainer and a damn site safer??

I have to admit though that I am an advocate of nuclear power...... in politically stable less seismically active regions of course!!

[Korkenzieher]

I think you can add to that too, that nuclear power isn't particularly efficient pricewise when you take into consideration expected decommisioning costs. However, I have to feel that the demand for 'always on' energy isn't likely to decline any time real soon - in fact in a rapidly industrialising world of over 6 and probably going on towards 8 billion people, the pressure is only going to grow.

It may that in the future, energy is simply seen as a cost that society has to bear, instead of as (for eg. in the case of oil) a cheap underwriter of the industrial economy. Renewables, such as they are, are going to need massive storage facilities to back them up, if they are to become competitive in terms of power generation and on demand delivery. That alone will make them even more uncompetitive in price, and probably environmental impact too.

That said, there are certainly some places on the planet where cheap solar could be better exploited. Your average poor African country, for example.

"Peak oil" is, and always has been a moving target. There are, meanwhile, quite adequate supplies of natural gas, oil shales, tar-sands and so on. As far as I can see, the only realistic alternative to those and / or nuclear would be harvesting of submarine gas hydrates (Clatharates) from the continental shelf, which while out of sight, would potentially be the worst enviromental disaster imaginable.


Edit: Geothermal is a lot harder than you imagine - locally it has some possibility, but when the Geothermal pilot projects were run in Cornwall, the control of underground fracture networks was near impossible - additional boreholes had to be drilled into rock which rather inconveniently fractured in the wrong directions when charges were detonated to increase fracture surface area in granites. Additionally, the motility of quartz at those depths and pressures tended to clog up the fracture networks too quickly for them to be commercially viable. So the only real solution is to use existing fracture networks (such as geysers) by sticking piping networks through them to create a heat exchange / minimal contact system. A huge environmental impact in pretty areas.

[pharvey]

• EU energy chief: Fukushima plant 'effectively out of control'
• Officials warn of new 'Chernobyl' disaster at Fukushima plant

19.30 (GMT) US nuclear agency chief says no more water in spent fuel pool at troubled Japan plant, AP reports. This means there is nothing to stop the fuel rods from getting hotter and ultimately melting down.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -live.html

[Spitfire]

Trouble at mill then.

What's the general feeling in China Pharvey? Must be a bit nervous as it's a bit close for comfort if the plant in Japan 'pops it's roof' and the winds are unfavourable.

US is reported this morning in the BBC as "alarmed" at the situation, which means it's heading south for sure. Exclusion zones keep growing around the station, US says it's citizens should be 80km away now.

[pharvey]

Trouble at mill then.

What's the general feeling in China Pharvey? Must be a bit nervous as it's a bit close for comfort if the plant in Japan 'pops it's roof' and the winds are unfavourable.

US is reported this morning in the BBC as "alarmed" at the situation, which means it's heading south for sure. Exclusion zones keep growing around the station, US says it's citizens should be 80km away now.

I've just arrived back from a trip to the UK/Turkey, so haven't seen a lot. There does however seem to be obvious concern not only with the situation in Japan, but with the Sichuan eathquake still in people's minds, there is a fair bit of concern regarding their own plants (and quality of build!!).