Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

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ozuncle
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by ozuncle »

I have seen a few times a ball plug into the side of a bunker and could not be found. If the sand is soft it can go right in and the entry point is hidden by loose sand falling down.
As far as I know it is just bad luck.

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PET
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by PET »

If a golf ball is struck and goes into a bunker and then cannot be found within 5 minutes, then the rule is that the ball is lost, and under penalty of stroke and distance, the player has to go back to where the shot was played and play again.
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lomuamart
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by lomuamart »

I've got the Rules of Golf (2012-15) and the Decisions (2012-13) here at home.
I've played the game off and on for years and "in equity" most golfers are aware of the spirit of the game.
Nevertheless, flipping through the books before now there certainly seem like some strange decisions. I think that the bunker one is not in the spirit, especially if it is known or virtually certain that the ball went in there.
How about invoking - I forget the exact wording - but "someone or something must have interfered with my ball"?
There's no question of cheating, just a matter of fairness IMHO.
After all, a ball can't be technically lost in a water hazard or lateral one.
I suppose the thing is to keep out of bunkers!!!
I'm going to go outside with a beer and look for some clause or other, but I bet I don't find it.
tuppence
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by tuppence »

Who invented rules for golf. Take bats n balls, pay your baht, listen to your caddy (while checking her out) have fun, drink a few, wear silly clothes, enjoy your mate's company, keep yuor phone switched off, and...err thats it.
Fat drunk and stupid is no way to go through life.......says who?
SunandFun
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by SunandFun »

Here are the relevant Rulings in Decisions:

12-1. SEEING BALL; SEARCHING FOR BALL
a. Searching for or Identifying Ball Covered by Sand
If the player’s ball lying anywhere on the course is believed to be covered by sand, to the extent that he cannot find or identify it, he may, without penalty, touch or move the sand in order to find or identify the ball. If the ball is found, and identified as his, the player must re-create the lie as nearly as possible by replacing the sand. if the ball is moved during the touching or moving of sand while searching for or identifying the ball, there is no penalty; the ball must be replaced and the lie re-created. In re-creating a lie under this Rule, the player is permitted to leave a small part of the ball visible.

Decision 20-7c/3
Ball Believed to Be lost in Bunker; competitor drops Another Ball in Bunker and Plays it; original Ball then found outside Bunker
Q. In stroke play, A played a long shot to the green and the ball appeared to have come to rest in a bunker beside the green. the ball was not found in the bunker. A dropped a ball in the bunker and played it onto the green. A then discovered his original ball behind the green. What is the ruling?
A. When A dropped another ball in the bunker, it became the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance and the original ball was lost – see definition of “Lost Ball.”
Since the place where the ball was dropped and played from was well in advance of the spot from which the original ball was last played, A was guilty of a serious breach of the relevant Rule (Rule 27-1) in failing to go back to that spot. He should have been disqualified unless he rectified the breach as prescribed in Rule 20-7c, in which case he would have incurred an additional penalty of two strokes. (Revised)


LOST BALL
A ball is deemed “lost” if: a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after
the player’s side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it;
or b. The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place (see Rule 27-2b);
or c. The player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance under Rule 26-1a, 27-1 or 28a; or d. The player has put another ball in to play because it is known or virtually certain that the ball, which has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (see Rule 18-1), is in an obstruction (see Rule 24-3), is in an abnormal ground condition (see Rule 25-1c) or is in a water hazard (see Rule 26-1b or c);
or e. The player has made a stroke at a substituted ball. Time spent in playing a wrong ball is not counted in the five-minute period allowed for search.

Decision 27-1/2.5
Lost Ball treated as Moved by outside Agency in Absence of Knowledge or Virtual certainty to that effect
Q. A player who is unable to find his ball treats it as moved by an outside agency, rather than lost, in the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty to that effect. Accordingly, he drops a ball where he thinks his original ball came to rest (Rule 18-1) and plays it, rather than taking the stroke-and-distance penalty for a lost ball (Rule 27-1). What is the ruling?
A. In the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty that the ball had been moved by an outside agency, the player was required to put another ball into play under Rule 27-1. In playing the ball dropped under Rule 18-1, the player played from a wrong place. In match play, he incurred a penalty of loss of hole (Rule 20-7b).
In stroke play, he incurred the stroke-and-distance penalty prescribed by Rule 27-1 and an additional penalty of two strokes for a breach of that Rule (Rule 20-7c). Because the breach was a serious one, he was subject to disqualification unless he corrected the error as provided in the second paragraph of Rule 20-7c.

Decision 26-1/1
Meaning of “Known or Virtually Certain”
When a ball has been struck towards a water hazard and cannot be found, a player may not assume that his ball is in the water hazard simply because there is a possibility that the ball may be in the water hazard. in order to proceed under Rule 26-1, it must be “known or virtually certain” that the ball is in the water hazard. in the absence of “knowledge or virtual certainty” that it lies in a water hazard, a ball that cannot be found must be considered lost somewhere other than in a water hazard and the player must proceed under Rule 27-1.
When a player’s ball cannot be found, “knowledge” may be gained that his ball is in a water hazard in a number of ways. The player or his caddie or other members of his match or group may actually observe the ball disappear into the water hazard. Evidence provided by other reliable witnesses may also establish that the ball is in the water hazard. Such evidence could come from a referee, an observer, spectators or other outside agencies. It is important that all readily accessible information be considered because, for example, the mere fact that a ball has splashed in a water hazard would not always provide “knowledge” that the ball is in the water hazard, as there are instances when a ball may skip out of, and come to rest outside, the hazard. In the absence of “knowledge” that the ball is in the water hazard, Rule 26-1 requires there to be “virtual certainty” that the player’s ball is in the water hazard in order to proceed under this Rule. Unlike “knowledge,” “virtual certainty” implies some small degree of doubt about the actual location of a ball that has not been found. However, “virtual certainty” also means that, although the ball has not been found, when all readily available information is considered, the conclusion that there is nowhere that the ball could be except in the water hazard would be justified. In determining whether “virtual certainty” exists, some of the relevant factors in the area of the water hazard to be considered include topography, turf conditions, grass heights, visibility, weather conditions and the proximity of trees, bushes and abnormal ground conditions.
The same principles would apply for a ball that may have been moved by an outside agency (Rule 18-1) or a ball that has not been found and may be in an obstruction (Rule 24-3) or an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1c). (Revised)
The same would apply "UNDER EQUITY" for a Bunker/Hazard.
Hope this sheds some light unto the question. The definition of "Virtual Certainty has been revised this year.
Happy Golfing! Sun and Fun
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ozuncle
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by ozuncle »

Hi Sun and Fun,

I believe some rules have been adjusted recently.

Can you please give me a ruling on these.

On the putting green you have commenced your stroke but just before your putter hits the ball it moves sharply away because of slope or wind or both. You don't hit the ball.

Is it a penalty?

Do you replace the ball or play it where it lies?

Also,

You have teed your ball up and commenced your swing but just (about a foot) before striking the ball, it falls off the Tee because of loose ground, wind or Tee not being placed in a sturdy position.

( The ball was clearly seen by others in the group to fall off before the club got near the ball. Definately not a windy.) In this case, the swing was completed because it was too late to stop.

You completely miss the ball as it rolled about 3 inches away.

Should you play it where it lies without a penalty? (ie play your second shot)

or

Re Tee it and start again with no penalty?


Thanks

:cheers:
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lomuamart
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by lomuamart »

As far as I'm aware, on the green, the rules have been adjusted so that if, after you've addressed the ball, it moves through no fault of your's, then there is no penalty and the ball is played from its new position.
The key is that it must be known or virtually certain that the player didn't cause the movement - ie the wind did.
I'm really not sure about the second one. I'd be interested to hear the answer to that.
SunandFun
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by SunandFun »

Hi "ozuncle", Sorry I missed your post. Just checked in and saw it, so here are the answers to your questions:
1) "On the putting green you have commenced your stroke but just before your putter hits the ball it moves sharply away because of slope or wind or both. You don't hit the ball."

Is it a penalty? Yes, most likely. Unless there was a big gust of wind that leaves no doubt that the wind moved the ball, (Virtually Certain) you will have been deemed to have moved the ball. Slope or Gravity is not an "outside agency." The ruling usually is "against" the player when there is doubt.
Decision 18-2b/11 says:
A Ball played by another Player (outside agency) has moved his ball. There is no penalty, as it is known or virtually certain that the player did not cause the ball to move, Rule 18-2b does not apply – see exception under Rule 18-2b. in such a case where an agency directly causes a ball to move, the Rule applicable to that agency (e.g. Rule 18-1, 18-2a, 18-3, 18-4 or 18-5) applies.
The same principle applies if it is known or virtually certain that a ball in play has been moved by wind, water or some other element after the player has addressed it; there is no penalty and the ball must be played from its new location. Gravity is not in itself an element that should be considered when applying the exception to Rule 18-2b; therefore, unless it is known or virtually certain that some agency other than gravity (e.g. outside agency or wind) caused the ball to move after address, the player is subject to a one stroke penalty under Rule 18-2b and must replace the ball. (Revised)

Do you replace the ball or play it where it lies? Replace the ball. If you do not replace the ball it is a two stroke penalty. Playing from a wrong place and you are subject to disqualification if the wrong place was significantly closer to the hole and would give you an unfair advantage.

2) "You have teed your ball up and commenced your swing but just (about a foot) before striking the ball, it falls off the Tee because of loose ground, wind or Tee not being placed in a sturdy position.

( The ball was clearly seen by others in the group to fall off before the club got near the ball. Definately not a windy.) In this case, the swing was completed because it was too late to stop.
Definition of STROKE: A “stroke” is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball, but if a player checks his downswing voluntarily before the clubhead reaches the ball he has not made a stroke. Therefore the stroke counts. (If you cannot stop your downswing and intentionally "re-route" your club path to avoid hitting the ball, you no longer have the intention of hitting it. But if you do not alter your swing path or check your downswing, you are considered to have made a "STROKE."

You completely miss the ball as it rolled about 3 inches away. Yes, this was a "windy." Sorry.

Should you play it where it lies without a penalty? (ie play your second shot)

or

Re Tee it and start again with no penalty? There is no penalty unless you re-tee the ball. You play it from where it rolled as your second stroke. If you re-tee the ball you are invoking 27-1a (Stroke and Distance) and are now hitting your third shot off the tee. See Decision 18-2a/2.

Great questions and thanks for asking.
I wouldn't have to manage my anger if people could learn to mange their stupidity!
ozuncle
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by ozuncle »

Sun and Fun,

Thanks

Much appreciated.

:cheers:
You only live once.
SunandFun
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by SunandFun »

As you can tell I love the "Rules" Anytime you have a question, send it to me!
I wouldn't have to manage my anger if people could learn to mange their stupidity!
heartofmidlothian
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by heartofmidlothian »

Hi Sunandfun, I have a rules question for you which happened to me many years ago in a competition. The rules committee couldn't find the rule and I wasn't penalised. I hit my first tee shot, which looked like it was very close to OB, so I hit a provisional down the middle. I went down a bank and found my first ball just in bounds so I hacked it back down the fairway (which I couldn't see). When I got back to the fairway my playing partner told me that it had hit my provisional ball.
What is the correct ruling?
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Korkenzieher
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by Korkenzieher »

Just a guess, but since the original ball was in play, the provisional would be a moveable object and therefore you play the original from where it lies and pick up the provisional.
Had enough of the trolls. Going to sleep. I may be some time....
SunandFun
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by SunandFun »

Hi Heartofmidlothian, As Korkenzieher said, no penalty.
The provisional ball is "an outside agency" and not "the "players' equipment." If you hit your partner, caddie or golf bag (equipment), then it would be a one stroke penalty and the ball will be played as it lies. (19-2)
19-1 BALL IN MOTION DEFLECTED OR STOPPED BY OUTSIDE AGENCY
If a player’s ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency, it is a rub of the green, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies.

HAPPY GOLFING!
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Korkenzieher
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by Korkenzieher »

:bow: Phew! :cheers: Otherwise it would be back to the rule book. :banghead: Again.
Had enough of the trolls. Going to sleep. I may be some time....
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by Korkenzieher »

@heartofmidlothian & sunandfun

The US open website http://www.usopen.com/ has today posted a video on this exact situation because of several incidents at this years tournament. When the page comes up, you will see it as one of the flash-video articles on the opening page.
Had enough of the trolls. Going to sleep. I may be some time....
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