History Challenge

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PeteC
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History Challenge

Post by PeteC » Thu May 12, 2011 4:05 am

Not Current Affairs, too good to be in Foo, and I guess not really right for Education, although it may be? (Admin decision) Anyway, a place to try to stump readers concerning Historical events and items. In example, when and where did this happen, what is this and from where, who said this, who invented this, etc.

I think best if we stick to Western history, but if anyone is keen on Thai and Asian history we can include that also.

I'll post something up later today, but feel free to have a go if you have any good ideas to begin things. Pete :cheers:
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Re: History Challenge

Post by richard » Thu May 12, 2011 4:27 am

Here is a starter

http://timelines.ws/
RICHARD OF LOXLEY

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Re: History Challenge

Post by PeteC » Thu May 12, 2011 8:06 am

What is this, and where can replicas be found displayed today? Pete :cheers:

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Re: History Challenge

Post by pharvey » Thu May 12, 2011 10:33 am

prcscct wrote:What is this, and where can replicas be found displayed today? Pete :cheers:

HC1.jpg
Strangely enough, I've only just got back from a stint working in Russia where one of the guys I was working with was very much into military memorabilia. This I'm sure is the Russian Coat of Arms with the Imperial Eagle.

On the replica side of things, I really have no idea - might just cheat a tad and have a quick peak on Google :oops:
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Re: History Challenge

Post by PeteC » Thu May 12, 2011 12:22 pm

pharvey wrote:
prcscct wrote:What is this, and where can replicas be found displayed today? Pete :cheers:
Strangely enough, I've only just got back from a stint working in Russia where one of the guys I was working with was very much into military memorabilia. This I'm sure is the Russian Coat of Arms with the Imperial Eagle.

On the replica side of things, I really have no idea - might just cheat a tad and have a quick peak on Google :oops:
Correct!, the double headed eagle...and I probably used the wrong word when using 'replica'. What I meant is where is it still seen and in use, and the answer is on the top of poles erected on top of the onion shaped domes on Russian orthodox churches in Moscow, and probably on other churches throughout the country.

It's a symbol that has been used by many civilizations over the centuries, but as the Russian symbol seems to be the most widespread and talked about since Ivan III.

What I don't know is how and when St. George got on there, and why? There are many pictures of the Coat of Arms in Russia minus St. George. Maybe he was always on there originally, but removed during the Soviet era? Pete :cheers:
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Re: History Challenge

Post by sandman67 » Thu May 12, 2011 4:01 pm

St George is very big with the Eastern Orthodox Church ... perhaps, him being Turkish after all. Hes the parton saint of England because he is the patron saint of Chivalry, and so back in 1346 when Edward III decided to enforce his claims to our territories in France, he adopted St George as the national saint to piss off the French knighthood, who until then considered France the home of Chivalry. Thats also the same time our flag and arms took in the quarters inclduding the blue and fleur de lis sections.

My turn

What is this, and where does it come from?
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:idea: :idea: :idea:
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Re: History Challenge

Post by PeteC » Thu May 12, 2011 4:12 pm

Someone on a different thread a few weeks ago said St. George was from Syria...I think I read that? Pete :cheers:
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Re: History Challenge

Post by PeteC » Thu May 12, 2011 4:15 pm

Ich dien in German means 'I serve'. Will leave the rest for Pharvey. :D Pete :cheers:
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Re: History Challenge

Post by Arcadian » Thu May 12, 2011 4:20 pm

sandman67 wrote:St George is very big with the Eastern Orthodox Church ... perhaps, him being Turkish after all. Hes the parton saint of England because he is the patron saint of Chivalry, and so back in 1346 when Edward III decided to enforce his claims to our territories in France, he adopted St George as the national saint to piss off the French knighthood, who until then considered France the home of Chivalry. Thats also the same time our flag and arms took in the quarters inclduding the blue and fleur de lis sections.

My turn

What is this, and where does it come from?
d.gif
:idea: :idea: :idea:
Prince of Wales feathers?

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Re: History Challenge

Post by Siani » Thu May 12, 2011 4:22 pm

sandman67 wrote:St George is very big with the Eastern Orthodox Church ... perhaps, him being Turkish after all. Hes the parton saint of England because he is the patron saint of Chivalry, and so back in 1346 when Edward III decided to enforce his claims to our territories in France, he adopted St George as the national saint to piss off the French knighthood, who until then considered France the home of Chivalry. Thats also the same time our flag and arms took in the quarters inclduding the blue and fleur de lis sections.

My turn

What is this, and where does it come from?
d.gif
:idea: :idea: :idea:
It is the emblem of the Prince of Wales.

In 1346, Edward III of England had invaded France - Battle of Crecy. After the battle, Edward rode through the battlefield and found a dead mercenary troop leader. This soldier was German who sold his services to whoever would pay and on his armour was emblazoned the motto Ich Dein, meaning 'I serve'. So that his men could see him properly in the heat of battle, the German had a helmet with three ostrich plumes. Edward picked up this unusual trophy and adopted it as his coat of arms. Since that day, the Prince of Wales’ emblem has been the three feathers with the legend Ich Dein.

:)

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Re: History Challenge

Post by Terry » Thu May 12, 2011 4:54 pm

prcscct wrote:Someone on a different thread a few weeks ago said St. George was from Syria...I think I read that? Pete :cheers:

This is from Wikipedia

Saint George (ca. 275/281 – 23 April 303) was, according to tradition, a Roman soldier from Syria Palaestina and a priest in the Guard of Diocletian, who is venerated as a Christian martyr. In hagiography Saint George is one of the most venerated saints in the Catholic (Western and Eastern Rites), Anglican, Eastern Orthodox, and the Oriental Orthodox churches. He is immortalized in the tale of Saint George and the Dragon and is one of the Fourteen Holy Helpers. His memorial is celebrated on 23 April, and he is regarded as one of the most prominent military saints.

Funny - I always thought he was Greek!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: History Challenge

Post by sandman67 » Thu May 12, 2011 7:10 pm

Well done Terry....indeed it is the coat of arms of the Prince of Wales, and indeed it became so after the first Prince of Wales, the psycho son of Edward III adopted them on the battlefield of Crecy in 1346

BUT

it didnt belong to a German mercenary of any common stamp. It was the coat of arms of King John 1 of Bohemia and Luxembourg. He was a proper nutball who fought on the French side, and didnt let the fact he was blind as a bat stop him either. He strapped himself to a man of arms on each side, and waded forward up the slope...unfortunately straight into the Black Princes formation of Welsh longbowmen archers and footmen. When the men at arms got peppered with bodkins at about 50 yards out the mad old sod cut himself loose, stood up and still waded on, eventually being felled by a footman with a military pick, having blind swung and downed a fair few others who tried to bring him down.

In the aftermath of the battle the Black Prince had his men gather up the body and return it home with full honours (as opposed to the French who were given a dose of the Misericord, picked clean and their bodies used as fodder for the war dogs), and afterward he adopted the arms of one of the bravest men hed ever faced down in tribute. It helped that the phrase Ich Dien "I serve" was phonetically close to the Welsh phrase meaning "Your man".

whilst the English will always cry "Agincourt!" they forget the much more drastic victory of the earlier Battle of Crecy (the first european battle where cannon played a part). When you see a formation of bowmen let go the order is "Loose!". "Fire" is what a cannon formation order use. This again ws formalised at Crecy so the two sections didnt get the orders to fire confused.

At Crecy the scores on the doors were

England - between 100 and 40 or so dead, mainly in the ranks of the Black Princes men as they took the brunt of teh only semi-succesful French advance. All common Welsh bowmen.

France - over 30,000 dead including 1200 Knights of the first rank, 11 Princes, the Crown Prince of France and King John 1 of Bohemia. King Phillip of France wounded by a Welsh broadhead arrow as he ran away.

nearly a hundred years later the French forgot the lessons they should have learned that day and again advanced stumbling through mud, laughing at the much smaller English force of commoners and bowmen facing them down beside Henry V. True they remembered to leave their horses behind but at Agincourt, 250yds from our lines, we reminded them of the mistake of laughing at Welsh bowmen.

At Crecy, and later at Poitiers where the French again tried to charge at bowmen up a muddy slope, we burned that lesson into history, ending the use of mass cavalry charges against longbowmen forever.

I guess we celebrate Agincourt as it ended the Hundred Years War, whereas Crecy was where the slaughter really started.

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Re: History Challenge

Post by Siani » Thu May 12, 2011 7:39 pm

sandman67 wrote:Well done Terry....indeed it is the coat of arms of the Prince of Wales, and indeed it became so after the first Prince of Wales, the psycho son of Edward III adopted them on the battlefield of Crecy in 1346

BUT

it didnt belong to a German mercenary of any common stamp. It was the coat of arms of King John 1 of Bohemia and Luxembourg. He was a proper nutball who fought on the French side, and didnt let the fact he was blind as a bat stop him either. He strapped himself to a man of arms on each side, and waded forward up the slope...unfortunately straight into the Black Princes formation of Welsh longbowmen archers and footmen. When the men at arms got peppered with bodkins at about 50 yards out the mad old sod cut himself loose, stood up and still waded on, eventually being felled by a footman with a military pick, having blind swung and downed a fair few others who tried to bring him down.

In the aftermath of the battle the Black Prince had his men gather up the body and return it home with full honours (as opposed to the French who were given a dose of the Misericord, picked clean and their bodies used as fodder for the war dogs), and afterward he adopted the arms of one of the bravest men hed ever faced down in tribute. It helped that the phrase Ich Dien "I serve" was phonetically close to the Welsh phrase meaning "Your man".

whilst the English will always cry "Agincourt!" they forget the much more drastic victory of the earlier Battle of Crecy (the first european battle where cannon played a part). When you see a formation of bowmen let go the order is "Loose!". "Fire" is what a cannon formation order use. This again ws formalised at Crecy so the two sections didnt get the orders to fire confused.

At Crecy the scores on the doors were

England - between 100 and 40 or so dead, mainly in the ranks of the Black Princes men as they took the brunt of teh only semi-succesful French advance. All common Welsh bowmen.

France - over 30,000 dead including 1200 Knights of the first rank, 11 Princes, the Crown Prince of France and King John 1 of Bohemia. King Phillip of France wounded by a Welsh broadhead arrow as he ran away.

nearly a hundred years later the French forgot the lessons they should have learned that day and again advanced stumbling through mud, laughing at the much smaller English force of commoners and bowmen facing them down beside Henry V. True they remembered to leave their horses behind but at Agincourt, 250yds from our lines, we reminded them of the mistake of laughing at Welsh bowmen.

At Crecy, and later at Poitiers where the French again tried to charge at bowmen up a muddy slope, we burned that lesson into history, ending the use of mass cavalry charges against longbowmen forever.

I guess we celebrate Agincourt as it ended the Hundred Years War, whereas Crecy was where the slaughter really started.

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
:)
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Re: History Challenge

Post by pharvey » Thu May 12, 2011 7:40 pm

Nice one SM - I had my ''Welsh teachings'' etc..., so waited in place! :D

''Ich Dien'' of course sounds fairly Germanic........ what luck in that the British Royal family (and the English :D :run: ) are in fact GERMANIC, oh sorry, apart from the Greek of course!! (Us Celts just legged it to the hills).

What I will say, is that I have always been taught that the phrase ''Ich Dien'' is ''I Serve'' and is a proud part of the Welsh emblem to me - we serve the country (whilst Welsh, to most of us, that means Britain).
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Re: History Challenge

Post by pharvey » Thu May 12, 2011 7:47 pm

I remember this, simply because I was given the coin/medal/disc when I was a teenager and into collecting memorabilia.

It's not a medal, not a coin..... but in remembrance of something - what is it?
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Should I show you the other side.......... everything is there.
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