Thai officials believe 12 boys missing in cave are alive

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Re: Thai officials believe 12 boys missing in cave are alive

Post by nil » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:04 am

Elon Musk calls British diver who helped rescue Thai schoolboys 'pedo guy' in Twitter outburst

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 48366.html

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Re: Thai officials believe 12 boys missing in cave are alive

Post by handdrummer » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:02 am

It looked like Musk was there for the photo op. Hush, you Musky.

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Re: Thai officials believe 12 boys missing in cave are alive

Post by 404cameljockey » Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:47 am

The Musk monkey really came unstuck. Calling someone a paedophile, and going on to say that all expats living in Thailand are sus (suspicious), in other words probably paedophiles.

He only cares about publicity, good or bad. What a....

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Re: Thai officials believe 12 boys missing in cave are alive

Post by Aussie69 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:12 pm

RCer wrote:
MDMK wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:19 pm
Can anyone explain what the Thai thinking could be behind the reluctance to admit the boys were sedated for the trip out? I really don't get it. If one or more had died then I would understand the reluctance somewhat... but heck they are all out and doing so much better than anyone could have hoped for. So why the outright denial of sedation in the beginning and now finally an admission of mild sedation. When anyone with eyes can see it was something more than a single diazepam.

I am not knocking it...proof of the pudding is in the eating. All out. All alive and well. I just dont get why the Thai authorities are playing it down to such an extent.
I can speak from experience a sedated/semi-conscious person or even unconscious person is much easier to rescue. They don't struggle. Swimming and breathing underwater is not a natural thing. Unfortunately we/I were not qualified to administer any type of sedation.

Problem comes in when you to land.

In this case, they had plenty of people waiting to take over when land was reached.
All this question about sedation is answered if you look at the Australian cave diving doctors speciality - he is an anethesist.

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Re: Thai officials believe 12 boys missing in cave are alive

Post by Aussie69 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:13 pm

nil wrote:Elon Musk calls British diver who helped rescue Thai schoolboys 'pedo guy' in Twitter outburst

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 48366.html
In my opinion the whole Musk thing was a promo opportunity from the beginning.

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Re: Thai officials believe 12 boys missing in cave are alive

Post by MDMK » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:02 pm

Aussie 69. My question about sedation wasn't about who administered it or what aubstance was used and why. I wanted (want) to know why the Thai authorities first outright denied sedation was used then played it down to such an extent that it sounded like each boy was given 1 diazepam. I don't get why that is something worth denying. In fact in light of the absolute success of the mission their sedation should be applauded as it was obviously the right thing to do.

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Re: Thai officials believe 12 boys missing in cave are alive

Post by Aussie69 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:09 pm

MDMK wrote:Aussie 69. My question about sedation wasn't about who administered it or what aubstance was used and why. I wanted (want) to know why the Thai authorities first outright denied sedation was used then played it down to such an extent that it sounded like each boy was given 1 diazepam. I don't get why that is something worth denying. In fact in light of the absolute success of the mission their sedation should be applauded as it was obviously the right thing to do.
My post wasn't specifically aimed at your post, I was just commenting on the speculation of sedation in general. I do not understand the denials either? I put it down to some cultural aspect I didn't understand, or quite possibly pre-emptive denial in case the rescue went bad that could possibly be attributed to sedation. My guess is as good as yours Image

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Re: Thai officials believe 12 boys missing in cave are alive

Post by MDMK » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:12 pm

Aussie69 wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:09 pm
I do not understand the denials either? I put it down to some cultural aspect I didn't understand, or quite possibly pre-emptive denial in case the rescue went bad that could possibly be attributed to sedation. My guess is as good as yours Image
I don't think it was pre-emptive, if I remember rightly the denials from the Thai authorities came after the boys were all out. Must be some kind of weird Thai face-saving thing that I will never get. I just find it so irritating when it could have gone soooo wrong (sedation alone I mean, not just the rescue) that they play down (totally deny) the very important role the drugs (and Richard Harris's call on what and how much to administer) played. So many variables must come in to play, and that man obviously made the right calls time and time again, with each and every boy.

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Re: Thai officials believe 12 boys missing in cave are alive

Post by 404cameljockey » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:45 pm

If you consider what kind of very dangerous panic reaction any of those young children might experience if not sedated, being totally enclosed in some kind of wrapper, with a breathing mask, and also knowing he is under water, sometimes in a tiny mousehole of space and below ground, I don't think that mild or even stronger sedation is in any way a bad option. But I think possibly that they should legally have sought parents' permission though, and keeping it from them (as they seem to have done) was not in any way the correct choice. Anaethetising youngsters in their poor physical condition for several hours must be hard to calculate, even for an experiences anaethetist. Thank the gods it went well.

The result was fine, the best; whether the secrecy was justified I'm not sure.

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Re: Thai officials believe 12 boys missing in cave are alive

Post by Aussie69 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:09 pm

404cameljockey wrote:If you consider what kind of very dangerous panic reaction any of those young children might experience if not sedated, being totally enclosed in some kind of wrapper, with a breathing mask, and also knowing he is under water, sometimes in a tiny mousehole of space and below ground, I don't think that mild or even stronger sedation is in any way a bad option. But I think possibly that they should legally have sought parents' permission though, and keeping it from them (as they seem to have done) was not in any way the correct choice. Anaethetising youngsters in their poor physical condition for several hours must be hard to calculate, even for an experiences anaethetist. Thank the gods it went well.

The result was fine, the best; whether the secrecy was justified I'm not sure.
Oh without a doubt sedating the kids was the safest option for all involved. God, even if saving their lives and those of rescuers required putting them into an induced coma was the solution in this life and death task I'd agree.

I am just so happy with the results. And I think in terms of the overall operation Thailand did a good job.

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Re: Thai officials believe 12 boys missing in cave are alive

Post by MDMK » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:46 pm

404cameljockey wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:45 pm
If you consider what kind of very dangerous panic reaction any of those young children might experience if not sedated, being totally enclosed in some kind of wrapper, with a breathing mask, and also knowing he is under water, sometimes in a tiny mousehole of space and below ground, I don't think that mild or even stronger sedation is in any way a bad option. But I think possibly that they should legally have sought parents' permission though, and keeping it from them (as they seem to have done) was not in any way the correct choice. Anaethetising youngsters in their poor physical condition for several hours must be hard to calculate, even for an experiences anaethetist. Thank the gods it went well.

The result was fine, the best; whether the secrecy was justified I'm not sure.
I can understand the secrecy before the last batch of boys were out. But I never heard a word about sedation till after they were all out safely, and that's when the Thai authorities started denying any sedation was used, then finally admitting to some very mild anti-anxiety type thing.

As for parental permission, do we *know* that wasn't sought and granted?

And saying I understand with the secrecy before all the boys were out... I mean the secrecy towards the press and the general public. I don't agree with keeping the parents in the dark (excuse the pun) IF this is what happened.

I absolutely agree with both you and Aussie69. As someone with terrible claustrophobia in the best of circumstances (like a lift, lol) I completely understand the need to sedate.

I guess the risk of killing one or more of the boys with the sedation was less than the risk of killing them without the sedation.

I just wish I could understand why they (the Thai authorities) are still playing down the sedation.
Hell, it saved them !

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Re: Thai officials believe 12 boys missing in cave are alive

Post by 404cameljockey » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:57 pm

I just read in another Thai Expat forum that diplomatic immunity had been granted to the Australian doctor Richard Harris and two medical assistants, in case anything went wrong. This was confirmed by the Thai Foreign Minister Don Pramudwinai.

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Re: Thai officials believe 12 boys missing in cave are alive

Post by MDMK » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:05 pm

404cameljockey wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:57 pm
I just read in another Thai Expat forum that diplomatic immunity had been granted to the Australian doctor Richard Harris and two medical assistants, in case anything went wrong. This was confirmed by the Thai Foreign Minister Don Pramudwinai.
ah ok.

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Re: Thai officials believe 12 boys missing in cave are alive

Post by Vital Spark » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:13 pm

404cameljockey wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:45 pm
But I think possibly that they should legally have sought parents' permission though, and keeping it from them (as they seem to have done) was not in any way the correct choice...The result was fine, the best; whether the secrecy was justified I'm not sure.
I see what you say, but the parents are not experts at cave rescue. They would have probably gone to a monk to ask him whether it was the right decision resulting in another day or two delay endangering their kids and the rescuers lives. There really was no other option.

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Re: Thai officials believe 12 boys missing in cave are alive

Post by 404cameljockey » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:14 am

Vital Spark wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:13 pm
404cameljockey wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:45 pm
But I think possibly that they should legally have sought parents' permission though, and keeping it from them (as they seem to have done) was not in any way the correct choice...The result was fine, the best; whether the secrecy was justified I'm not sure.
I see what you say, but the parents are not experts at cave rescue. They would have probably gone to a monk to ask him whether it was the right decision resulting in another day or two delay endangering their kids and the rescuers lives. There really was no other option.

VS
True, but parents' permission must be sought in a hospital situation, they can also refuse life-saving medical treatment there where experts say one thing but they believe another; why should this be different (although I'm glad it was, as you say)?

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