How about running 2 threads on the property section, sort of the good and the Bad. Those wishing to promote property ownership could post on the Good, Those against could post on the Bad. Anyone crossing over threads could have their post deleated.
There is a situation now that when a certain set of posters dont like a thread they can simply be abusive and get the thread locked, this can not be healthy for a public forum.
JJ
Property Threads
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jumpjockey
- Amateur
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- Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:17 pm
- Location: Quahog
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huahinsimon
- Professional
- Posts: 392
- Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:43 am
bad
i don;t think not promoting is the correct term. i think scams, like (edited by Grim Reaper - Moderator), poor construction, failure to fix, contract violations. i'm sure the same ranters will be against
Reason for edit: From our Forum Rules and Terms of Usage.
PROPERTY ISSUES
We welcome general discussion on property related issues but will not permit the posting of specific information that may be defamatory or used as part of a legal dispute at a later date. This includes but is not restricted to the names of real estate companies, developers, owners, photographs or republication of private messages or email. What is permitted will be so at our sole discretion, this forum is not a platform for property disputes.
Reason for edit: From our Forum Rules and Terms of Usage.
PROPERTY ISSUES
We welcome general discussion on property related issues but will not permit the posting of specific information that may be defamatory or used as part of a legal dispute at a later date. This includes but is not restricted to the names of real estate companies, developers, owners, photographs or republication of private messages or email. What is permitted will be so at our sole discretion, this forum is not a platform for property disputes.
The devil made me do it the first time.
The second time I did it on my own.
When I finally got to the land of milk and honey, the milkman shot me
Happy wife, Happy life!
The second time I did it on my own.
When I finally got to the land of milk and honey, the milkman shot me
Happy wife, Happy life!
Good idea JJ for those needing to get stuff off their chests or those needing to big up their businesses, ok if you want a one-sided discussion, hardly what a forum is based upon though. And hardly a constructive base of information for the most important issue, protecting future buyers from the same pitfalls many have experienced.
The pro one will be irrelevant full of self-promoting nonsense and the anti one will be full of what we've seen on here in the 6,000 odd posts since it really kicked off in May 2005 (happy 4th anniversary
) when we were all told we were going to lose our houses as our companies will be closed down. Baseless fearmongering has helped no-one.
Until we address the real issue and people be honest about the mistakes they've made regarding the following then we will not progress further than mud-slinging. I don't know how many times I've said this but the so-called scammers (mostly developers with genuine intentions who have got into financial difficulties through their own fault) are being handed the environment in which to flourish due to us not legally protecting ourselves to the fullest available, for example:
1) Bangkok Law Firm: Employ a law firm from Bangkok specialising in real estate, in 45 houses I've had 12 use solicitors, all from Hua Hin, and only 4 had land title searches carried out because that was an extra 7,000 Baht. Not one has asked for the land title to be held by a third party so when they finished paying for their house I could have already sold the land or taken a loan out against it and the land paper will be in Kasikorn Bank's safe (which is located on the 2nd floor behind the door marked 'Private Staff Only'.) I mean, WTF??
2) Land title search: only buy where your plot's Chanote title has been already 'cut' from the overall land, make sure a lawyer holds it so landowner can not sell it, borrow against it from a bank.
3) Transfer the land upfront: Then if developer goes bust you still have the land to finish the house off.
4) Building permit: If it's not available at deposit stage then something is wrong.
5) Never risk more than 10% of property value: Only pay a 10% deposit, we want 20% but we'll take 10% really. Then you have staged payments, you only pay the next installment AFTER the work is complete and been inspected by you or your lawyer. Worst is they can go bust/run off with your 10% deposit.
6) Architects and Structural Drawings: In 45 only 2 have asked for a set of the drawings AFTER house finished, not one Hua Hin lawyer has ever asked for a copy of them, so not one single person is checking the structural work, footings, re-inforcing metal in concrete etc is being installed as specified.
7) Ensure build quality and materials: For an extra 20k Baht your lawyer will provide a qualified engineer to periodically inspect the foundations are correct, rebar being used is the specified size, was the ground compacted down properly using machinery, what grade of cement is being used, are they getting the air bubbles out of the pours, wiring is earthed to ground etc etc
8.) Escrow Accounts: There's a law there to protect you on new condo blocks (it's not mandatory for the developer but it is mandatory if you want it to be), any competent lawyer would suggest it. Those who lost money on (edited by moderator) did not do their homework but doesn't Joe have nice legs.
The following searches took me 18 minutes, guess what Bangkok lawyers say, shock horror .........
Google 'Safe way to buy property in Thailand': First page - "At this stage, you may be asked to give a deposit to the seller. The seller should be required to repay your deposit in full if they pull out of the deal for any reason, or if the land title deed does not clear at the land office. The seller should allow the lawyer to hold the money in escrow until the deal is completed".
Google: 'Thailand Real Estate Lawyer': First page - "The concept of putting money down on escrow before you receive title to your property is such a familiar occurrence in common law jurisdictions we don't often give it a second thought. An escrow is designed particularly with consumer protection in mind safeguarding your rights should anything go wrong before the transfer of the property"
Google 'Dont lose money on Thai Property': First page - "If the deposit is refundable, it should be held by the buyer's lawyer or a trustworthy third party"
9) Contracts and Warranties: Should be checked and can be ammended/negotiated with developer to protect you. Clear policy on the warranty, defects liability period etc. In the main buyers do not read them, period. Thai law covers the sellers responsibility to fix defects whether they're in the contract or not anyway.
10) Bottom line: The majority (not all) of buyers act utterly naively when they get over here and do not legally protect themselves as they would as a matter of course back home. The above plus many other things I've not listed will protect you, will limit your financial risk to a minimum, will prevent most (not all) of the disasters/scams taking place.
Or buy a resale or just rent
SJ
The pro one will be irrelevant full of self-promoting nonsense and the anti one will be full of what we've seen on here in the 6,000 odd posts since it really kicked off in May 2005 (happy 4th anniversary
) when we were all told we were going to lose our houses as our companies will be closed down. Baseless fearmongering has helped no-one.Until we address the real issue and people be honest about the mistakes they've made regarding the following then we will not progress further than mud-slinging. I don't know how many times I've said this but the so-called scammers (mostly developers with genuine intentions who have got into financial difficulties through their own fault) are being handed the environment in which to flourish due to us not legally protecting ourselves to the fullest available, for example:
1) Bangkok Law Firm: Employ a law firm from Bangkok specialising in real estate, in 45 houses I've had 12 use solicitors, all from Hua Hin, and only 4 had land title searches carried out because that was an extra 7,000 Baht. Not one has asked for the land title to be held by a third party so when they finished paying for their house I could have already sold the land or taken a loan out against it and the land paper will be in Kasikorn Bank's safe (which is located on the 2nd floor behind the door marked 'Private Staff Only'.) I mean, WTF??
2) Land title search: only buy where your plot's Chanote title has been already 'cut' from the overall land, make sure a lawyer holds it so landowner can not sell it, borrow against it from a bank.
3) Transfer the land upfront: Then if developer goes bust you still have the land to finish the house off.
4) Building permit: If it's not available at deposit stage then something is wrong.
5) Never risk more than 10% of property value: Only pay a 10% deposit, we want 20% but we'll take 10% really. Then you have staged payments, you only pay the next installment AFTER the work is complete and been inspected by you or your lawyer. Worst is they can go bust/run off with your 10% deposit.
6) Architects and Structural Drawings: In 45 only 2 have asked for a set of the drawings AFTER house finished, not one Hua Hin lawyer has ever asked for a copy of them, so not one single person is checking the structural work, footings, re-inforcing metal in concrete etc is being installed as specified.
7) Ensure build quality and materials: For an extra 20k Baht your lawyer will provide a qualified engineer to periodically inspect the foundations are correct, rebar being used is the specified size, was the ground compacted down properly using machinery, what grade of cement is being used, are they getting the air bubbles out of the pours, wiring is earthed to ground etc etc
8.) Escrow Accounts: There's a law there to protect you on new condo blocks (it's not mandatory for the developer but it is mandatory if you want it to be), any competent lawyer would suggest it. Those who lost money on (edited by moderator) did not do their homework but doesn't Joe have nice legs.
The following searches took me 18 minutes, guess what Bangkok lawyers say, shock horror .........
Google 'Safe way to buy property in Thailand': First page - "At this stage, you may be asked to give a deposit to the seller. The seller should be required to repay your deposit in full if they pull out of the deal for any reason, or if the land title deed does not clear at the land office. The seller should allow the lawyer to hold the money in escrow until the deal is completed".
Google: 'Thailand Real Estate Lawyer': First page - "The concept of putting money down on escrow before you receive title to your property is such a familiar occurrence in common law jurisdictions we don't often give it a second thought. An escrow is designed particularly with consumer protection in mind safeguarding your rights should anything go wrong before the transfer of the property"
Google 'Dont lose money on Thai Property': First page - "If the deposit is refundable, it should be held by the buyer's lawyer or a trustworthy third party"
9) Contracts and Warranties: Should be checked and can be ammended/negotiated with developer to protect you. Clear policy on the warranty, defects liability period etc. In the main buyers do not read them, period. Thai law covers the sellers responsibility to fix defects whether they're in the contract or not anyway.
10) Bottom line: The majority (not all) of buyers act utterly naively when they get over here and do not legally protect themselves as they would as a matter of course back home. The above plus many other things I've not listed will protect you, will limit your financial risk to a minimum, will prevent most (not all) of the disasters/scams taking place.
Or buy a resale or just rent
SJ
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stgrhe
- Professional
- Posts: 389
- Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 9:55 am
- Location: Hua Hin, originally from Stockholm
A very good summary SJ! I am missing one point only. After each installment has been approved and paid for, the title to the partially completed house should be transferred to the buyer. This should be repeated after each inspection.Super Joe wrote: 5) Never risk more than 10% of property value: Only pay a 10% deposit, we want 20% but we'll take 10% really. Then you have staged payments, you only pay the next installment AFTER the work is complete and been inspected by you or your lawyer. Worst is they can go bust/run off with your 10% deposit.
Should the builder run away or go bust then the buyer would be free to complete the non-finished house as it is already his. Else there could be legal complications.
Further, such partial inspection (milestone) should be recorded and signed off by both parties provided the construction has been made according to plan and specification. Any deviations should first be corrected by the builder before payment is made.
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jumpjockey
- Amateur
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- Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:17 pm
- Location: Quahog
Excellent contribution, SJ. Thank you very much.
"There's no plausible or convincing reason, certainly no evidential one, to believe that there is such an entity (= deity) and that all observable phenomena, including the cosmological ones... are explicable without the hypothesis; you don't need the assumption."
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Grim Reaper
- Forum Admin
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- Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:27 pm
Yet again HHAD and the Moderators are being blamed by both sides of the property debates for being biased towards one side or the other.
Previously banned members are being banned again as soon as they appear on ANY forum.
We will be monitoring all property threads and we will lock and continue to ban any member who breaks the Forum Rules and Terms of Usage of this Forum.
We are not taking any sides in these debates, but we will not allow a forum for all and sundry to take swipes at whoever they like without any evidence to back up their claims.
This thread is pointless although SJ posting is useful.
SJ, if you wish to continue with your post above, please start another thread.
Thread Locked.
Previously banned members are being banned again as soon as they appear on ANY forum.
We will be monitoring all property threads and we will lock and continue to ban any member who breaks the Forum Rules and Terms of Usage of this Forum.
We are not taking any sides in these debates, but we will not allow a forum for all and sundry to take swipes at whoever they like without any evidence to back up their claims.
This thread is pointless although SJ posting is useful.
SJ, if you wish to continue with your post above, please start another thread.
Thread Locked.
You reap what you sow