Richard i hope i am missed i am fed up with being shot at
Tin shacks
Sarge
Come on, you know how to dodge the bullets
Although I've never been in forces I've had my fair share of flack
Someone once told me that the instigator of flak is usually guilty of - insecurity, wrong side of the bed syndrom, naivity or jealousy. I always operate on an open mind basis and quietly categorise the individual into one of the above. I usually end up feeling sorry for them
Come on, you know how to dodge the bullets
Although I've never been in forces I've had my fair share of flack
Someone once told me that the instigator of flak is usually guilty of - insecurity, wrong side of the bed syndrom, naivity or jealousy. I always operate on an open mind basis and quietly categorise the individual into one of the above. I usually end up feeling sorry for them
RICHARD OF LOXLEY
It’s none of my business what people say and think of me. I am what I am and do what I do. I expect nothing and accept everything. It makes life so much easier.
It’s none of my business what people say and think of me. I am what I am and do what I do. I expect nothing and accept everything. It makes life so much easier.
Sarge, do you not think you are being a little childish? If you really believe what you say surely you will be of more help to everyone( yourself included _ you will only become frustrated with no outlet for your thoughts.) me included. We have visited Thailand many times but as 2 farangs only have a very superficial understanding, although we love the country and her people so much we are doing that dreaded deed and buying a house in Hua Hin to live in. I read many different points of view and try to sift the good from the bad, but if there are only limited opinions how can I or people like me learn what is right? 
Sarge - many thanks for the PM with your apology. Sadly, I never got it (why not???), but thanks for the idea anyway!sargeant wrote:I sent a pm to your better half yesterday with an apology
Two small questions though do you feel enriched when you recieve your pay or do you feel you have worked to earn it
How would you feel if your employer was telling you he was enriching your life by paying you what you have earned by your hard work
In reply to your two questions, no, I don't feel particularly enriched when I get my paycheck at the end of each month, because I feel that I deserve it, for all that hard (?) work I have put in. I do, however, feel enriched when somebody comes along and asks me to do something that I wouldn't normally do in my daily life, and pays me handsomely for it.
Secondly, I wouldn't be hugely impressed if my employer told me that he was enriching my life, simply because he paid me for the job I was paid to do, but a windfall? - Yes!
If we weren't here, the man wouldn't be asked to cut the grass...
If you want to leave the forum, it is obviously your decision. I have, however, enjoyed much of what you have written, even if I have suffered slightly from it, so I would consider it a sad move. May I suggest that you get out of the pram, find the dummy, and put it back in again! Don't really want to lose you!
Say 'hi' to Mrs. Sarge - nicely, mind -
P
Apart from that Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play? - Tom Lehrer
richard wrote:Lev's right Sarge
Forums are about expressing one's personal views within the boundaries set by T's and C's
Everbody's views are valuable as that is how we learn. Just the same as sitting round a bar table to discuss how we are going to change the world
HHAD is the best forum site I've been priveledged to be a member of and that is because of good management and attentive moderators
Although an outspoken Yorkshireman I have to bite my tongue now and again
Sarge - please don't go
I second that - Sarge - please don't go
It has been a nice tread so far, many good points of view. I fully understand what you say Sarge, and also your sentiments.
Was in the Philippines at the end of the Marcos hey-days, when things in a very short time turned ugly, and being a foreigner there became somewhat hazardous. Would hate to see that happening in Thailand.
The charm of asia is more than the girlies !
I sent 2 pms which never arrived i have tried to resend them and cannot
so to tie up loose ends i will post them
Parahandy I read the words "they dont bite to mean you had no takers sorry i was incorrect and therefore offer my sincere and abject apology
Ozuncle in no way was i having a go at you far from it i think the question you posed about property values (Stuart Park)is a very good one the eventual answere will speak volumes about whether the farangs coming here to live have the correct mind set.
However i sincerely apologise if you thought i was having a go and hope you will accept that i was not
so to tie up loose ends i will post them
Parahandy I read the words "they dont bite to mean you had no takers sorry i was incorrect and therefore offer my sincere and abject apology
Ozuncle in no way was i having a go at you far from it i think the question you posed about property values (Stuart Park)is a very good one the eventual answere will speak volumes about whether the farangs coming here to live have the correct mind set.
However i sincerely apologise if you thought i was having a go and hope you will accept that i was not
A Greatfull Guest of Thailand
Tin Shacks
Sargeant,
I did get your two pm's thank you.
From your last posting it appears you did not get my reply.
I said "no hard feelings, thanks for the info on the development, i would like to catch up for a beer and/or golf when next in town."
I also asked that you reconsider your decision as your input is very much appreciated.
I did get your two pm's thank you.
From your last posting it appears you did not get my reply.
I said "no hard feelings, thanks for the info on the development, i would like to catch up for a beer and/or golf when next in town."
I also asked that you reconsider your decision as your input is very much appreciated.
You only live once.
Not too sure I understand the basis of the discussion here
The underlying premise of the first post was the erosion of respect for foreigners and later posts deal with the hypothesis of Thai concern ramping up into a disquiet.
Now, I have oonly lived in Thailand for 7 years and mostly in Bangkok, but do people feel that respect has a lot of meaning in Thai society? It seems like a western cultural norm which does not have a lot of meaning in this society, other than the huge respect given His Majesty the King. Institutions are hardly respected, politicians less, the police almost not at all - where does respect fit in Thai society?
Secondly, do people here feel that the Thai people are going to be wound up about this issue to foster some sort of backlash? The Thai people wound up about something? Not the folks I have been dealing with professionally and socially for the past years; they do not seem to feel too strongly over too much. Certainly not enough to act on it.
Now, I am willing to quickly admit that the cheap cost of living and the bars and girls attract some dodgy tourists and residents. More to Pattaya to here, but there are many I see and cringe. I could easily see Thai people lose repect for those citizens and I would not blame them if they did, but respect and backlash do not fit with the Thais I know. They seem to be the most accommodating people. Maybe disgust and gossip among some, but I think that most Thais heed the good advice, "Never Hate in Plurals"
Now, I have oonly lived in Thailand for 7 years and mostly in Bangkok, but do people feel that respect has a lot of meaning in Thai society? It seems like a western cultural norm which does not have a lot of meaning in this society, other than the huge respect given His Majesty the King. Institutions are hardly respected, politicians less, the police almost not at all - where does respect fit in Thai society?
Secondly, do people here feel that the Thai people are going to be wound up about this issue to foster some sort of backlash? The Thai people wound up about something? Not the folks I have been dealing with professionally and socially for the past years; they do not seem to feel too strongly over too much. Certainly not enough to act on it.
Now, I am willing to quickly admit that the cheap cost of living and the bars and girls attract some dodgy tourists and residents. More to Pattaya to here, but there are many I see and cringe. I could easily see Thai people lose repect for those citizens and I would not blame them if they did, but respect and backlash do not fit with the Thais I know. They seem to be the most accommodating people. Maybe disgust and gossip among some, but I think that most Thais heed the good advice, "Never Hate in Plurals"
-
Wanderlust
- Legend
- Posts: 2862
- Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:27 pm
- Location: Hua Hin
bunthom, a good post and one which I largely agree with; however my impression is that the younger generation of Thais are not quite as accommodating as their predecessors. Your point about 'respect' is well made, and maybe another word should be used instead - fear? It does seem that authority, whether it comes out of election or money, does engender a certain amount of cowtowing amongst the Thais, whereas farangs are generally more critical, regardless of status. The concern is that all farangs will be tarred with the same brush as the worst examples we see, and I think that is often the case until you become known to them, but I don't think that is so unusual - there are stereotypes of different nationalities in every country.
There have been more reported problems in Hua Hin between farangs and Thais since I have lived here, and that is probably because there are more farangs here every year, but the concern is that it could develop into more of a problem; I hope your take on the Thai disposition is the one that is correct.
There have been more reported problems in Hua Hin between farangs and Thais since I have lived here, and that is probably because there are more farangs here every year, but the concern is that it could develop into more of a problem; I hope your take on the Thai disposition is the one that is correct.
Re: Not too sure I understand the basis of the discussion he
Hello group my name is Paul, I am a dodgy resident.Now, I am willing to quickly admit that the cheap cost of living and the bars and girls attract some dodgy tourists and residents.
Burger
Hi Wanderlust-
I share the perception that there has been an increase in the problems between Thais and foreigners since I have been in country too. But I would also say that there has been an increase in problems among the Thais themselves as well during that time. The easy going nature which greases Thai society seems to be wearing away in places. I could not say if this is because of the problems with alcohol and drugs, the erosion of real incomes of average Thais, or the increasing gap between rich and poor, or some other reason.
A lot of the time, the Thai elites and the press put this down to increased commercialism and westernization but I think that is just marginally related to the problem. The Thai people are losing ground compared to other developing countries and there is a lot more exposure to the good life, whether that is in the west, Hong Kong, Japan, Singapore, etc. More consumer products on the wish list and less money to buy them is a bad situation.
The net result is that life is a lot tougher for the average person here, and seeing a bunch of foreigners with no real spending contraints on holiday has to grate. The Bangkok Thais coming down here each weekend are likely a further reminder of how much the "haves" really do have, I guess. So that might wear as well, but it seems to me that the smiles are less prevalent as time goes on and incomes go sideways in real terms as prices continue to rise.
In a society with steep hierarchy and awful education, you must wonder what a hard working person hopes for the future of their children. I am sure that it would darken my view and my smile would be a lot further from the surface.
Right now, I think that the increased difficulties in making ends meet are put into the background by the Thai disposition, but I would agree that will not last. Eventually, the attitdudes of people who do not take matters seriously will change, and hopefully they will focus their frustrations on the fundamental change required to make Thailand a success, not on foreign visitors. I do share your concern in that regard and agree that younger Thais do not have the same relaxed view as their parents. Perhaps it is they would want the good life the most.
I share the perception that there has been an increase in the problems between Thais and foreigners since I have been in country too. But I would also say that there has been an increase in problems among the Thais themselves as well during that time. The easy going nature which greases Thai society seems to be wearing away in places. I could not say if this is because of the problems with alcohol and drugs, the erosion of real incomes of average Thais, or the increasing gap between rich and poor, or some other reason.
A lot of the time, the Thai elites and the press put this down to increased commercialism and westernization but I think that is just marginally related to the problem. The Thai people are losing ground compared to other developing countries and there is a lot more exposure to the good life, whether that is in the west, Hong Kong, Japan, Singapore, etc. More consumer products on the wish list and less money to buy them is a bad situation.
The net result is that life is a lot tougher for the average person here, and seeing a bunch of foreigners with no real spending contraints on holiday has to grate. The Bangkok Thais coming down here each weekend are likely a further reminder of how much the "haves" really do have, I guess. So that might wear as well, but it seems to me that the smiles are less prevalent as time goes on and incomes go sideways in real terms as prices continue to rise.
In a society with steep hierarchy and awful education, you must wonder what a hard working person hopes for the future of their children. I am sure that it would darken my view and my smile would be a lot further from the surface.
Right now, I think that the increased difficulties in making ends meet are put into the background by the Thai disposition, but I would agree that will not last. Eventually, the attitdudes of people who do not take matters seriously will change, and hopefully they will focus their frustrations on the fundamental change required to make Thailand a success, not on foreign visitors. I do share your concern in that regard and agree that younger Thais do not have the same relaxed view as their parents. Perhaps it is they would want the good life the most.
Sargeant, you are a true Thai.
I've lived here for just over 5 years but have been coming back and forth for the last 40. Most Thais have grown up with a sense of great pride. This pride is often interpreted as arrogance. The analogy of a taxi driver giving advice to a top brain surgeon as to his next operation. Many Thais that I know (and I'm married to one) will believe that they know better and will not accept any opposing view. Sargeant, progress and change is through debate where there will always be opposing arguments.
My wife lived in the UK for around 8 years (British passport forthcoming etc). Now we're back in Thailand, she is more critical of her own countrymen than I am. In situations were the sensible approach from a farang would be to shut up, apologise and back off, my wife will pick up the gauntlet and take a stand. She's done this with authorities, especially the police and has always come out on top. She has learnt that just because someone is in a position of authority doesn't make them right. She's got me out of many a sticky situation to the point where I've received an apology.
This is true of many Thais I know who have spent an extended time in Europe. She compares the UK and how she was received there to the way farangs are treated in Thailand. "Land of Smiles" - my wife points out that the smiles are superficial and usually for money. Walking into a store, I will get the wai and the smile and my wife is usually ignored. Not for long as she will be quick to remark "What about me?"
I would agree with you, Sarge regarding the people who live by the railway track. In the main, they are probably the most genuine of people. My father-in-law lives there with his family. Because he has a daughter married to a 'rich' farang, he could have better but doesn't want it as he doesn't believe he deserves it. His wife doubles as our maid and wont take more than the going rate for her services. Gifts are appreciated but there is the will to 'pay it back' by doing certain odd-jobs for free.
Come on Sarge, there are good and bad in any country. Be careful how we should integrate. Everywhere, there is room for improvement and just because we're from a different culture doesn't mean we have nothing to offer.
I've lived here for just over 5 years but have been coming back and forth for the last 40. Most Thais have grown up with a sense of great pride. This pride is often interpreted as arrogance. The analogy of a taxi driver giving advice to a top brain surgeon as to his next operation. Many Thais that I know (and I'm married to one) will believe that they know better and will not accept any opposing view. Sargeant, progress and change is through debate where there will always be opposing arguments.
My wife lived in the UK for around 8 years (British passport forthcoming etc). Now we're back in Thailand, she is more critical of her own countrymen than I am. In situations were the sensible approach from a farang would be to shut up, apologise and back off, my wife will pick up the gauntlet and take a stand. She's done this with authorities, especially the police and has always come out on top. She has learnt that just because someone is in a position of authority doesn't make them right. She's got me out of many a sticky situation to the point where I've received an apology.
This is true of many Thais I know who have spent an extended time in Europe. She compares the UK and how she was received there to the way farangs are treated in Thailand. "Land of Smiles" - my wife points out that the smiles are superficial and usually for money. Walking into a store, I will get the wai and the smile and my wife is usually ignored. Not for long as she will be quick to remark "What about me?"
I would agree with you, Sarge regarding the people who live by the railway track. In the main, they are probably the most genuine of people. My father-in-law lives there with his family. Because he has a daughter married to a 'rich' farang, he could have better but doesn't want it as he doesn't believe he deserves it. His wife doubles as our maid and wont take more than the going rate for her services. Gifts are appreciated but there is the will to 'pay it back' by doing certain odd-jobs for free.
Come on Sarge, there are good and bad in any country. Be careful how we should integrate. Everywhere, there is room for improvement and just because we're from a different culture doesn't mean we have nothing to offer.
Tin shacks
HHtel said
"Come on Sarge, there are good and bad in any country. Be careful how we should integrate. Everywhere, there is room for improvement and just because we're from a different culture doesn't mean we have nothing to offer."
HHtel, well put.
"Come on Sarge, there are good and bad in any country. Be careful how we should integrate. Everywhere, there is room for improvement and just because we're from a different culture doesn't mean we have nothing to offer."
HHtel, well put.
Thanks to all of you for your positive comments it was very humbling thankyou all.
I will try to answer the posts i have missed firstly by asking a simple question
How often do you ask your Thai friends "what do OTHER Thais think about Falangs".
This question allows the person being asked to put their views in the third person ie this is not my view its somebody elses therefore it is not personal
please think about that because i have got a totally different view of Thai views by asking it that way
Next the statement "the Thai NEED our money" substitute WANT for NEED and i will agree but NEED they certainly dont they would survive without it
The first is arrogant and derogatory the second is up to them
Parahandy i am not having a go at all because i am guilty of it as well and your post made me realize it so thankyou
It is a common held thought of many even umwah until recently that if i was not here the Thais around me would be not getting so much (that is true) but is only half of the answere if we were NOT here neither would 80% of the thais they are here BECAUSE we are here. just a different view point and way of looking at it
For me the first way is slightly arrogant the second way is saying (in a way) thankyou for coming to look after us
I think that the problems for a lot of falangs is they think the immediate Thais around them are the epitomy of all Thais OH how so wrong for a start all the other Thais are as jealous as hell of them because they percieve us as having lotsadosh and the immediate are getting something they are not the immediate on the other hand are nearly always (not all the time) saying what they think you want to hear.
HHTEL oh how i wish i was a true Thai oh how i wish life would be so much easier (less interesting though and a lot less fun)
I do totally agree with you of course we have a lot to offer however just because we offer it IT does not mean they MUST accept it getting upset at thanks but no thanks and calling them ungratefull stupid uneducated etc is IMHO out of order and then there is the point of HOW it is offered
I enjoyed that so thanks readers
I will try to answer the posts i have missed firstly by asking a simple question
How often do you ask your Thai friends "what do OTHER Thais think about Falangs".
This question allows the person being asked to put their views in the third person ie this is not my view its somebody elses therefore it is not personal
please think about that because i have got a totally different view of Thai views by asking it that way
Next the statement "the Thai NEED our money" substitute WANT for NEED and i will agree but NEED they certainly dont they would survive without it
The first is arrogant and derogatory the second is up to them
Parahandy i am not having a go at all because i am guilty of it as well and your post made me realize it so thankyou
It is a common held thought of many even umwah until recently that if i was not here the Thais around me would be not getting so much (that is true) but is only half of the answere if we were NOT here neither would 80% of the thais they are here BECAUSE we are here. just a different view point and way of looking at it
For me the first way is slightly arrogant the second way is saying (in a way) thankyou for coming to look after us
I think that the problems for a lot of falangs is they think the immediate Thais around them are the epitomy of all Thais OH how so wrong for a start all the other Thais are as jealous as hell of them because they percieve us as having lotsadosh and the immediate are getting something they are not the immediate on the other hand are nearly always (not all the time) saying what they think you want to hear.
HHTEL oh how i wish i was a true Thai oh how i wish life would be so much easier (less interesting though and a lot less fun)
I do totally agree with you of course we have a lot to offer however just because we offer it IT does not mean they MUST accept it getting upset at thanks but no thanks and calling them ungratefull stupid uneducated etc is IMHO out of order and then there is the point of HOW it is offered
I enjoyed that so thanks readers
A Greatfull Guest of Thailand
Ok some good views, suggestions and points brought up here.
Sgt, I'm impressed that you've taken the time to mix with the common 'small' folk as I agree thats where the real stories and characters are.
You say you're leaving... Then you keep posting! WTF!?
Your either in or your not, there are no in-betweens. Which is it?
If the state that Thailand is in and some postings have upset you along with the Night Crawlers (Of which myself Rider is one!) to the extent that you want to leave then do so!
At the end of the day you leaving a forum over such matters is pedantic verging on pathetic.
Thailand is Thailand and change is change. Either show some gumption and stay or fall-out and leave the forum as right now you're turning the forum into the Land of Confusion with your gimpish ramblings.
Sgt, I'm impressed that you've taken the time to mix with the common 'small' folk as I agree thats where the real stories and characters are.
You say you're leaving... Then you keep posting! WTF!?
Your either in or your not, there are no in-betweens. Which is it?
If the state that Thailand is in and some postings have upset you along with the Night Crawlers (Of which myself Rider is one!) to the extent that you want to leave then do so!
At the end of the day you leaving a forum over such matters is pedantic verging on pathetic.
Thailand is Thailand and change is change. Either show some gumption and stay or fall-out and leave the forum as right now you're turning the forum into the Land of Confusion with your gimpish ramblings.