Anyone recommend a decent conveyancing solicitor??

[TnT]

Hi. Could anyone please recommend a decent, english speaking conveyancing solicitor? Intend coming over to Hua Hin and buying a property. Obviously, want everything sorted legally and no nasty surprises after I have bought. Might be being super cautious, but wouldnt dream of buying a property in England without decent legal advice.. so why should I be any different buying in Thailand. Any advice greatly received.. especially any info on pitfalls and good housing developments in the area. Thanks everyone.

[lockwood74]

You are right to want to use legal services when buying a house, Not sure of a good solicitor though.

Be aware that the legal system is diferent in Thailand.

When buying land it is the land department who act as the legal binder for land transactions. They are also there to scrutinise the legal title etc.

Buying land and house , I can immagine is a more complex process particularly if it is in a project where maintenance charges are applied

Best of luck

Regards

[TnT]

Sorry forgot to mention, me and partner buying property, both British, intend living in Hua Hin full time (as far as visas will allow).. Dont know if this makes any difference to any advice you may give?? Cheers.

[norm]

We think Hua Hin area is a marvelous place to live and plan on building a home here. Buying the land is a problem, with the goverment cracking down on farang companys owning land. You may want to consider leasing the land. There are many pros and cons on this but we are leaning in the direction of a 30+30+30 lease. If for no other reason than the piece of mind that you are legal.

The first 30 years are locked in and legal, after that it is a bit questionable. It would appear to depend on who holds the lease.

We have attempted to analyze the finances of leasing vs. renting and in 30 years we ended up better off leasing (on paper).

If you do find a good solicitor we would like to hear about it. It is best to understand as much as possible about the process before deciding on and hiring a solicitor. In Thailand it takes no qualifications to hang up a shingle and become a solicitor. So be a bit cautious in who you select.

Regards
Norm

[johnnyk]

30+30+30 is not recognized by the Land Office.
30 max and not binding on heirs or successors, it is a personal agreement (i.e. a promise 555) and both signatories must turn up in person at the L.O. to sign the 2nd 30 yrs.
I think best to operate assuming it is 30 yrs only.
Fewer nasty surprises that way.

[Wanderlust]

What johnnyk says is correct, although I have been told that a way to lease with a bit more security is to get a 30 year lease and then renew it every 5 years with the owner of the land; that way you will always have at least 25 years left on it. This is, of course, assuming that the land owner is agreeable to this. I would think it is possible to get this type of agreement written into the lease as a legally binding condition, but you would need to ask a lawyer.

[Burger]

You also have a buy-out clause.

Why not exercise this right every, say, 10 years and enter into a new 30 year lease with some one else.

Burger

[Beguine]

[quote="Wanderlust"]What johnnyk says is correct, although I have been told that a way to lease with a bit more security is to get a 30 year lease and then renew it every 5 years with the owner of the land; that way you will always have at least 25 years left on it. This is, of course, assuming that the land owner is agreeable to this. I would think it is possible to get this type of agreement written into the lease as a legally binding condition, but you would need to ask a lawyer.[/quote]

They may agree to anything but in 5 years time, the land owner will probably not honour his agreement to renew for another 30 unless you agree to a higher price. If he does, you have to pay the tax and legal fees for 30 year leases each time, even though you only use 5 years of it. The agreement is not enforceable because you can only register the first 30 year lease at the Land Office, not an agreement to renew in 30 years or 5 years.

Bear in mind that your lease will be no longer enforceable, if the ownership changes hands because it is a personal agreement with the owner not binding on successors. A usufruct agreement (right to use the land) is better in this sense because it is binding on the owner's successors. Neither type of agreement is assignable without the owner's permission and you cannot pass your interest in the contract to your heirs. Couples would do well to have joint names in the contract spelling out the rights of the surviving partner to keep on the lease in the event one dies.

Thai 30 year leases are just a glorified version of one year residential leases, the only additional benefit is that they can be registered with the Land Office which makes enforcement technically possible but, if your landlord is wealthy and well connected, don't expect too much when you take him to court. I would seriously consider a condo which still has room for foreigners to register as a hassle free alternative that is yours to own, sell or pass on to your heirs.

[norm]

Does anyone know the benefits or disadvantages of leaseing through a company i.e. Palm Hill Homes Co Ltd. which should be around for more than 30 years and the company would be signing the lease not a individual.

Also if I have a clause in the lease agreement to have a new lease issued in my wifes name when I pass on it should pretty well cover us as I am 9 years older than her.

Any thought appreciated.

Norm

[Beguine]

Norm,

Yes, I would think you would do better to lease from a reputable and solvent looking Thai company, rather than a Thai individual. It is hard to say what will happen to it over 30 years but, at lease, companies can live for longer than people. You can get hold of the companies financial statements online from a listed company called Business Online (BOL) - no connection to myself - or get them yourself from the Ministry of Commerce.

I would insist on signing jointly with your wife and ask for some specific wording that guarantees that notwithstanding the demise of one of the lessees before the end of the 30 year lease period the lease agreement will remain in force with the surviving spouse as sole leasee.

[norm]

Beguine

Thanks for the input. Since we are paying the same price as people who purchase the land with a company Palm Hills seems quite happy to have any conditions we want in the lease. If they didn't we would have one of our thai friends do the lease, but I like the idea of leasing from a established company.

Thanks

Norm

[Beguine]

Norm,

Since you will pay the same price for a 30 year lease as freehold, you might want to ask a lawyer (from a decent Bkk firm) if they can protect your security of tenure. Usufruct gives you a bit more security than a straight lease, assuming it is possible in this case. Some wording to prevent the company from selling the property while the lease is in force without your written permission might help. Consider putting in financial penalties for sale of the property without permission or other unreasonable termination of the lease. Penalties for breach of these conditions to be the appraised market rent for the property for the residual period of the lease. Protecting against insolvency of the company is difficult without some type of loan structure and charge on the property registered with the Land Dept but a lawyer might have an idea.

[norm]

Beguine

In reading Thaivisa (can I say that here) someone said that you have to have a legitament reason for renewing a lease. That is why I was considering putting it in just my name with the right for it to be transfered to my wife when I pass away. That seemed like a good reason to renew it.

But then the idea of having a clause allowing us to purchase it at any time and the arranging a new thirty year lease may have some merit also.

I was under the impression that a usfruct (sp) could not be sold or inherited but was good until you died. I would be hopeful that our kids could inherit it some day in the distant future (I hope) or if necessary we could sell it.

But I agree we need a good attorney to put it together for us. Have not heard of a good one yet. Will be glad to pass on the details on in this forum once we have it all worked out.

Thanks once more
Norm

[Burger]

someone said that you have to have a legitament reason for renewing a lease.

I Don't believe that's true Norm, you can cancel (tear up) a lease at any time during the 30 years, and make a new one for 30 years (as long as the lessor agrees), as far as I've been told.

You should have a clause added that you have the right to buy the land at any time you wish, usually a small amount like 1% of the total lease value.

You should also have a 'Succession' clause added that in the event of death the lease passes to your heirs. You could name your wife to be the successor or leave it as 'heirs' that you may have named in a will. You may not be with your wife further down the line and/or she may go before you (sorry to be morbid).

You should also have an 'Assignment' clause, that you can sign over your lease rights to A.N.Other at any time during the lease period, ie: if you wanted to sell the place.

There's probably loads more clauses you should add, as Beguine says, see a decent solicitor.

I don't know about these Usufruct thingy's, maybe Beguine can fill us in more.

Good luck,

Burger

[Beguine]

This is from a law firm's website www.thailandlaw.com/bizforeign.html: "Usufruct Interest called in Thai "Sidthi-kep-kin" , this right gives you temporary ownership rights to things on or arising from the land. In practice, a usufruct is limited to a 30 year maximum period; like leases, the agreement can be successively renewed. In contrast to a lease, a usufructury interest can be sold or transferred, although it expires upon the death of the holder of the usufruct and therefore cannot be inherited." A standard lease cannot be assigned without the owner's permission and I don't know if a clause allowing assignment in a lease is really enforceable. If you want to be sure of being able to sell the residual term of the lease during your lifetime, usufruct might be better. As far as I know, a standard lease also expires automatically on the death of the lessee. Similarly, I don't know if a clause allowing bequest of the lease is enforceable. Consider asking Palm Hills if you can lease the property in the name of an offshore company and, if so, check with a lawyer that this would not result in the foreign company being deemed as having operations in Thailand. That would get around all problems of letting your wife or children take over the lease in the event of your demise. An offshore company in the BVI or other tax haven doesn't cost much to set up and maintain (no audited accounts are needed) and only takes a week or two. I was once told by Richard Ellis and a Thai lawyer that it was possible to buy a condo in the name of an offshore comany but I didn't do it in the end. If that was true, then it should also be possible to register a lease the same way. You may need to provide certified translations of the company documents. Of course put in all possible rights to purchase the property or renew the lease but bear in mind they are unlikely to be enforceable, if the company doesn't feel like it.

There are a lot of cases where golf courses have changed hands and the new owners have failed to honour the rights of members and property owners. A club in Bkk I have a membership at, Lakewood, was taken over a Thaksin crony who immediately increased the transfer fee for memberships from 10,000 baht to 150,000 baht, rendering them effectively worthless. He only compromised because a group of members led by a prominent Thai lawyer initiated litigation. The home owners at Alpine Golf in Bangkok were nearly evicted because it was built on temple land that had been illegally transferred. They were only saved because the new owner of the golf course was Thaksin, himself, who ordered the Land Dept to ignore a ruling of the Council of State that the land should be restored to the temple. Another club, Muang Kaew, that was losing money leased the whole course to a Canadian company for 30 years. After the Canadians had rebuilt the entire course at their own expense and turned around the finances of the club the owners suddenly evicted the them with thugs, citing a very questionable technicality in the lease. Even the intervention of the Canadian Embassy made no difference. I didn't mean to go on so long and am not trying to scare you but bear in mind that behind the smiles of the people who work at a golf course may lurk an amoral Thai Chinese business family that will do anything in the pursuit of profit. Just protect yourself as much as you can on the assumption that they may sell the entire property within 30 years.