Electric Vehicles (EV) Thread

[pharvey]

But, the real question I guess is how does this "strangle innovation" when allowing a Chinese Invasion takes all?

In my opinion, the correct way of fighting this would have been for large scale government investment about 10-20 years ago but they've missed the boat on that one.

On that I tend to agree, but it certainly doesn't mean companies selling out to Chinese companies/government or lacking innovation.

[KhunLA]

In the UK I’ll keep my petrol-hybrid for the foreseeable.
In Thailand I don’t drive and never have or will.

My view is that battery cars are a dead end; those who want one will buy one but ICE remains far superior for most users.

Please tell us how or why you think they are superior.

I've own / owned & driven both, and ICEV are ridiculously inferior. Performance wise and simply by design. EV motor has something like 20 parts to it vs the 2000 parts of an ICE. Along with ICE using a fuel that degrades some of those part. A few more parts need constant replacement, along with an exhaust system that eventually self destructs and rusts away.

EV's performance giving instant torque, and comes in real handle when passing slower ICEV, as shorter distance required. Hence the far superior performance part.

Spend the extra money, and get the same range before needing to charge. Which will be equal, next year or so, as the 500-1000 kms per charge range EV becomes the norm. Not that I want to be in my car for 500 kms without take a break, getting a munch.

EV motors and new batteries are designed to outlast the rest of the car. Yet to own a ICE that has done that, without a substantial cost involved, and why always sold & upgraded.

1 advantage, for the impatient, 'now' you can top up the tank in 10 mins, for a price (2-3X), instead of relaxing for 30-40 mins, after a few hours on the road. And how often are people 2-300 kms away from their house a year ?

In TH, as stated before, if our 20k kms were all local driving, we'd save 40+k baht a year by using PEA instead of petrol. Since having solar, we would save 50+k baht a year.

You enjoy your ICE, fine, choices for all, but please don't try to tell me they are superior. I do understand owning one in the UK might not be the best idea, if believing all the negatives one reads, but no fault of the EVs themselves.

But in TH, unless actually needing a truck, (2 options coming next year) I think people are crazy if their next new car here is an ICEV.

Only question mark here, and only for those like ourselves, spend a lot of time O&A, will they keep up on the charging station network, which they've done an excellent job. Hopefully they keeps pace with future sales, though not a big issue for us, as we avoid weekend traffic anyway. The few times we did travel on weekends, no Qs at charging stations we used. We traveled a good part of TH since owning, and never had to go searching for a charging station.

[buksida]

But in TH, unless actually needing a truck, (2 options coming next year) I think people are crazy if their next new car here is an ICEV.

I've followed this debate but haven't contributed and will remain on the fence for now (we have and need a truck, so you're not going to convert me).

If EVs take off in Thailand and become the norm as y'all hope for, how will the charging stations cope? During busy times and long weekends (when most Thais hit the roads), gas stations are rammed with vehicles (98% ICE), if even a quarter of them were EVs, the waiting times to get a charging space would be hours, the queues epic, and we know Thais are very selfish when it comes to motoring habits.

Its going to take decades to bring this charging infrastructure up to meet demand in Thailand if everyone goes out and buys an EV. Also would all the petroleum cartels be inclined to just switch their business model so readily? (Just thinking aloud here).

[KhunLA]

But in TH, unless actually needing a truck, (2 options coming next year) I think people are crazy if their next new car here is an ICEV.

I've followed this debate but haven't contributed and will remain on the fence for now (we have and need a truck, so you're not going to convert me).

If EVs take off in Thailand and become the norm as y'all hope for, how will the charging stations cope? During busy times and long weekends, gas stations are rammed with vehicles (98% ICE), if even a quarter of them were EVs, the waiting times to get a charging space would be hours, the queues epic, and Thais are very selfish when it comes to motoring habits.

Its going to take decades to bring this charging infrastructure up to meet demand in Thailand if it happens. Also would all the petroleum cartels be inclined to just switch their business model so readily? (Just thinking aloud here).

I can definitely see problems in the future for the weekenders. A couple years off, but yea, agree completely. It will eventually be a problem, but quite some time away for now. EV sales have slowed considerably, as ICEV also.

The inadequate public trans system isn't going to provide any relief either.

2 main tourist heavy routes, BKK-HH & BKK-Patts isn't a problem, as well within the range of most EVs now. Resorts would be smart to provide some charging, even slow, 7kW or 22kW cables, metered for a price, as some do already.

We're 100 kms south of HH, and visit daughter at Krung Thep, and can make it, though we do top up to 80% or more, just outside of, for convenience. Usually hungry and need a break anyway, if we made it that far without stopping already.

I think most destinations are close or far enough away, that it won't be a problem for quite some time. And with ranges already over 500+kms available, 1000 kms not far off, they may avoid any major problems.

I say far enough away, as most don't have the time off to travel longer distances, so those station aren't utilized much ... now.

We've been O&A on weekends, and as stated, yet to encounter a Q, but, suspect one or 2 may have been waiting shortly after we left. Timing is everything. We have passed charging station that were full, as next one was right up the road.

Having an MG is an advantage, as they have their own, restricted network, well established. Would think same with BYD, who are expanding quickly. Tesla now showing up in country.

We've gone as far south as Betong, Yala, and north to Nan, with no problems. Same with Phuket, and think most don't have the time to drive, or they'd fly. So far, CS have been mostly empty on our longer trips. At present, there really is way more than enough. Our experience anyway, but we're not restricted to Friday night - Sunday night for getting out of the house. Even with an ICEV, I wouldn't be a weekender, but realize, most don't have that option.

Though I wouldn't want to be anywhere that crowded anyway, retired or still working.

[Nereus]

Its going to take decades to bring this charging infrastructure up to meet demand in Thailand if everyone goes out and buys an EV.

Absolutely! Do not even need 50% EVs on the road! It has nothing to do with the countries (EGAT) generating capacity, or the reserve capacity, the existing distrubution infrastructure cannot cope with a rapidly increasing load at consumer level. It takes millions of dollars, not baht, to install new powerlines, transformers and associated equipment, plus the will and organisation that just does not exist!

[KhunLA]

Its going to take decades to bring this charging infrastructure up to meet demand in Thailand if everyone goes out and buys an EV.

Absolutely! Do not even need 50% EVs on the road! It has nothing to do with the countries (EGAT) generating capacity, or the reserve capacity, the existing distrubution infrastructure cannot cope with a rapidly increasing load at consumer level. It takes millions of dollars, not baht, to install new powerlines, transformers and associated equipment, plus the will and organisation that just does not exist!

Agree again, and the govt, all, worldwide (w/few exceptions) has failed miserably. IMHO, because they've cowered to big oil, and corruption for their benefit, to do as they are told.

Especially now in TH (every sunny country), and no reason why every homeowner doesn't have some solar at their house, feeding the grid. Not talking about expats, as most are renters or not here for that long. To get a tie into the grid is ridiculous here, for any kind of pay back. Can only use their recommended component, which wouldn't even be enough to run our house. For our brand of inverter (Deye), they allow 5kW inverter on 1 phase, and 10kW on 3 phase. Expensive to get approved and a pittance if you have any excess. I guess fine if nobody is home all day, or don't use AC. Which case your bill isn't that high to begin with.

We need at least 8kWh, so it's obvious, MEA/PEA don't want you to be independent of the grid. Or want to even have solar, as no assistance what so ever. Our installer charges an extra 20k if wanting to apply for pay back from PEA, says he's the cheapest, which I believe, as he knows we had no interest. Other installers charge up to 50k, as they need to subcontract a couple engineers to get the system approved, so he said.

Know of a couple people (on forum) and been waiting over a year for approval. Months for some, that just want a TOU meter, for lower rates overnight to charge EVs.

We're basically 'off' grid (still conx for 27 baht a month), rarely use and that's more for spite. I don't want to give them any baht of ours. Same with owning the EV, as petrol prices are nothing but price gouging, with all the majors having billions in windfall profits.

That your grid, infrastructure problem, worldwide in a nut shell. Why countries that can't compete with CH, have ridiculous import taxes on solar components and prices of EV are so expensive. Total control to keep you dependent on fossil fuel. Don't seem to have any desire to complete w/CH, why should they, as raking in the profits now. Screw the consumer.

Amazingly, TH seems to be doing it right, and big kudos for that. Making EV affordable, basically the same price now as comparable ICEV from JP, if not cheaper, even some 'made in TH' ICEV. Our ZS cost less than Toyota Corolla Cross starting price, and that's made in TH. That's crazy, ฿999k vs ZS's ฿959k or ฿869k price tag, when on sale.

Along with CS network, keeping up for now. Hopefully all the vendors will try to out do each other, and follow suit with Bangchak's 8 bay station. One machine with 2 fast plugs and 1 slow at most stations is a bit silly, even if under used. A little planning for the future would be good, and would think easier to install 2 at once, instead of adding on later.

[STEVE G]

If EVs take off in Thailand and become the norm as y'all hope for, how will the charging stations cope? During busy times and long weekends (when most Thais hit the roads), gas stations are rammed with vehicles (98% ICE), if even a quarter of them were EVs, the waiting times to get a charging space would be hours, the queues epic, and we know Thais are very selfish when it comes to motoring habits.

If all charging had to be done at stations that would certainly be a problem but seeing as the average daily car mileage worldwide is around 50km, the vast majority of charging will be done at home.
Put solar panels on the roof and it's free. How many people have a free gas station at home?

[Dannie Boy]

There’s little doubt that very soon the biggest stumbling block will be the ability (or lack of) to charge your EV on the move. Almost a week never goes by without an article about a breakthrough in battery technology, well one of these days it’s going to happen and the countless tens of thousands who are sitting on the fence over range anxiety concerns will suddenly be persuaded to go electric and then it will be the case of where/how do I charge it. Even in Thailand not everyone will have access to solar power and worldwide that number increases considerably, so you go from range anxiety to charging infrastructure anxiety.

As Nereus pointed out, increasing the charging infrastructure isn’t simply a case of installing banks of chargers, you need to upgrade the distribution network, all of which takes a long time and lots of


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[PeteC]

An option. I guess you could put it in the trunk and take it with you as well. Bottom line is 15 miles of charge for 4 hours generator charging. Not a lot, but in an emergency it will get you somewhere.

[Dannie Boy]

Personally I think you’d have to be fairly desperate to consider this as a viable means of providing such a short range of mileage.


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[2/cb]

In the UK I’ll keep my petrol-hybrid for the foreseeable.
In Thailand I don’t drive and never have or will.

My view is that battery cars are a dead end; those who want one will buy one but ICE remains far superior for most users.

Please tell us how or why you think they are superior.

I've own / owned & driven both, and ICEV are ridiculously inferior. Performance wise and simply by design. EV motor has something like 20 parts to it vs the 2000 parts of an ICE. Along with ICE using a fuel that degrades some of those part. A few more parts need constant replacement, along with an exhaust system that eventually self destructs and rusts away.

EV's performance giving instant torque, and comes in real handle when passing slower ICEV, as shorter distance required. Hence the far superior performance part.

Spend the extra money, and get the same range before needing to charge. Which will be equal, next year or so, as the 500-1000 kms per charge range EV becomes the norm. Not that I want to be in my car for 500 kms without take a break, getting a munch.

EV motors and new batteries are designed to outlast the rest of the car. Yet to own a ICE that has done that, without a substantial cost involved, and why always sold & upgraded.

1 advantage, for the impatient, 'now' you can top up the tank in 10 mins, for a price (2-3X), instead of relaxing for 30-40 mins, after a few hours on the road. And how often are people 2-300 kms away from their house a year ?

In TH, as stated before, if our 20k kms were all local driving, we'd save 40+k baht a year by using PEA instead of petrol. Since having solar, we would save 50+k baht a year.

You enjoy your ICE, fine, choices for all, but please don't try to tell me they are superior. I do understand owning one in the UK might not be the best idea, if believing all the negatives one reads, but no fault of the EVs themselves.

But in TH, unless actually needing a truck, (2 options coming next year) I think people are crazy if their next new car here is an ICEV.

Only question mark here, and only for those like ourselves, spend a lot of time O&A, will they keep up on the charging station network, which they've done an excellent job. Hopefully they keeps pace with future sales, though not a big issue for us, as we avoid weekend traffic anyway. The few times we did travel on weekends, no Qs at charging stations we used. We traveled a good part of TH since owning, and never had to go searching for a charging station.

Your detailed remarks explain why battery is better for you, which I accept.
I regularly drive between Staffs and Devon, a 194 mile journey. I can complete the return journey on a tankful of unleaded, stopping for comfort breaks as needed. I can use the air conditioning, heater, as desired. After a 400 mile return journey refuelling takes five minutes.
Don’t forget that in the UK around 45% of dwellings are unsuitable for home charging.

[PeteC]

^ ^ Some people will be for sure. The US is a big, big country and any extended power outage, like in the winter and after storms when power lines are down etc., rural people who may buy a EV may need something like that just to get to the store. Having said that, there are plenty of rural places that have huge generators with big fuel tanks that run the whole house. In that case you could get a full vehicle charge overnight with one of those systems.

4 hours = 15 miles, but overnight from supper to dawn would give you 45 miles with that small Honda unit.

[Dannie Boy]

In the UK I’ll keep my petrol-hybrid for the foreseeable.
In Thailand I don’t drive and never have or will.

My view is that battery cars are a dead end; those who want one will buy one but ICE remains far superior for most users.

Please tell us how or why you think they are superior.

I've own / owned & driven both, and ICEV are ridiculously inferior. Performance wise and simply by design. EV motor has something like 20 parts to it vs the 2000 parts of an ICE. Along with ICE using a fuel that degrades some of those part. A few more parts need constant replacement, along with an exhaust system that eventually self destructs and rusts away.

EV's performance giving instant torque, and comes in real handle when passing slower ICEV, as shorter distance required. Hence the far superior performance part.

Spend the extra money, and get the same range before needing to charge. Which will be equal, next year or so, as the 500-1000 kms per charge range EV becomes the norm. Not that I want to be in my car for 500 kms without take a break, getting a munch.

EV motors and new batteries are designed to outlast the rest of the car. Yet to own a ICE that has done that, without a substantial cost involved, and why always sold & upgraded.

1 advantage, for the impatient, 'now' you can top up the tank in 10 mins, for a price (2-3X), instead of relaxing for 30-40 mins, after a few hours on the road. And how often are people 2-300 kms away from their house a year ?

In TH, as stated before, if our 20k kms were all local driving, we'd save 40+k baht a year by using PEA instead of petrol. Since having solar, we would save 50+k baht a year.

You enjoy your ICE, fine, choices for all, but please don't try to tell me they are superior. I do understand owning one in the UK might not be the best idea, if believing all the negatives one reads, but no fault of the EVs themselves.

But in TH, unless actually needing a truck, (2 options coming next year) I think people are crazy if their next new car here is an ICEV.

Only question mark here, and only for those like ourselves, spend a lot of time O&A, will they keep up on the charging station network, which they've done an excellent job. Hopefully they keeps pace with future sales, though not a big issue for us, as we avoid weekend traffic anyway. The few times we did travel on weekends, no Qs at charging stations we used. We traveled a good part of TH since owning, and never had to go searching for a charging station.

Your detailed remarks explain why battery is better for you, which I accept.
I regularly drive between Staffs and Devon, a 194 mile journey. I can complete the return journey on a tankful of unleaded, stopping for comfort breaks as needed. I can use the air conditioning, heater, as desired. After a 400 mile return journey refuelling takes five minutes.
Don’t forget that in the UK around 45% of dwellings are unsuitable for home charging.

A rare sensible comment from you - keep it up!!


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[Dannie Boy]

^ ^ Some people will be for sure. The US is a big, big country and any extended power outage, like in the winter and after storms when power lines are down etc., rural people who may buy a EV may need something like that just to get to the store. Having said that, there are plenty of rural places that have huge generators with big fuel tanks that run the whole house. In that case you could get a full vehicle charge overnight with one of those systems.

4 hours = 15 miles, but overnight from supper to dawn would give you 45 miles with that small Honda unit.

But you’d use 3 gallons of fuel to do it and pollute the atmosphere in the process, so in an extreme emergency it would be better than nothing but not exactly the way forward.


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[2/cb]

Please tell us how or why you think they are superior.

I've own / owned & driven both, and ICEV are ridiculously inferior. Performance wise and simply by design. EV motor has something like 20 parts to it vs the 2000 parts of an ICE. Along with ICE using a fuel that degrades some of those part. A few more parts need constant replacement, along with an exhaust system that eventually self destructs and rusts away.

EV's performance giving instant torque, and comes in real handle when passing slower ICEV, as shorter distance required. Hence the far superior performance part.

Spend the extra money, and get the same range before needing to charge. Which will be equal, next year or so, as the 500-1000 kms per charge range EV becomes the norm. Not that I want to be in my car for 500 kms without take a break, getting a munch.

EV motors and new batteries are designed to outlast the rest of the car. Yet to own a ICE that has done that, without a substantial cost involved, and why always sold & upgraded.

1 advantage, for the impatient, 'now' you can top up the tank in 10 mins, for a price (2-3X), instead of relaxing for 30-40 mins, after a few hours on the road. And how often are people 2-300 kms away from their house a year ?

In TH, as stated before, if our 20k kms were all local driving, we'd save 40+k baht a year by using PEA instead of petrol. Since having solar, we would save 50+k baht a year.

You enjoy your ICE, fine, choices for all, but please don't try to tell me they are superior. I do understand owning one in the UK might not be the best idea, if believing all the negatives one reads, but no fault of the EVs themselves.

But in TH, unless actually needing a truck, (2 options coming next year) I think people are crazy if their next new car here is an ICEV.

Only question mark here, and only for those like ourselves, spend a lot of time O&A, will they keep up on the charging station network, which they've done an excellent job. Hopefully they keeps pace with future sales, though not a big issue for us, as we avoid weekend traffic anyway. The few times we did travel on weekends, no Qs at charging stations we used. We traveled a good part of TH since owning, and never had to go searching for a charging station.

Your detailed remarks explain why battery is better for you, which I accept.
I regularly drive between Staffs and Devon, a 194 mile journey. I can complete the return journey on a tankful of unleaded, stopping for comfort breaks as needed. I can use the air conditioning, heater, as desired. After a 400 mile return journey refuelling takes five minutes.
Don’t forget that in the UK around 45% of dwellings are unsuitable for home charging.

A rare sensible comment from you - keep it up!!


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Thanks for your condescending comment.