Tax Residency (bank requirements)

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Re: Tax Residency (bank requirements)

Post by Bluesky » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:57 pm

StevePIraq wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:51 pm
It is all explained at the following link, it appears Thailand has not signed up to sharing of data

http://www.oecd.org/tax/automatic-excha ... .en.345489
Thailand has signed up as a global forum member with the OECD but it looks like it will be around 2020 before things start to get a bit serious. Although if there is a specific request by a country with respect to a transnational crime matter I think the government would be obliging.
Screen Shot 2018-02-13 at 5.18.35 PM.png
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Re: Tax Residency (bank requirements)

Post by JohnD » Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:04 am

I have bank accounts in 3 different banks, in 3 different countries. One of them is Westpac Bank, Australia. Yesterday, I received a message alert from Westpac:
“Important information about your foreign tax residency status.
If you are a foreign tax resident you will be asked to:
- Provide the country of tax residency
- Provide your Tax Identification Number (TIN) if you have been issued one, or a reason for not providing one.”

When going to their website and giving the information required, a pop up message said something like ‘failure to provide information may result in your account being inoperable’. The deadline was about one week away. If this is only to get me to pay withholding tax, then that’s ok. This may be the intention short term, but my feeling is long term that I will not be able to operate such account without an up to date TIN.
My last TIN is years out of date, as I’m retired without income; why would you bother.
I did say that my country of tax residency was Thailand, and that I had not yet requested a TIN.

After a quick read through this thread – looks like a good idea to open a local interest bearing savings account – as described by GroveHillWanderer above:
“For instance, I have never filed a full tax return in Thailand but I do have a TIN which I got (in line with what was mentioned in an earlier post) so I could claim a refund on the 15% tax that was charged on an interest-bearing savings account. There is a form you have to fill out to claim the refund but it isn't a full tax return as I understand it, just a one-page form saying you're claiming a refund and stating the amount.”

Having this savings account could justify the issue of a Thai TIN, which could then be used elsewhere?

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Re: Tax Residency (bank requirements)

Post by StevePIraq » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:20 pm

Strange, I am also with Westpac and have not seen anything related to this. If you earn interest on a Oz bank account you MUST pay tax on the interest and submit a tax return. I still pay withholding tax in Oz which is very minimal.
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Re: Tax Residency (bank requirements)

Post by GroveHillWanderer » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:30 am

JohnD wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:04 am
After a quick read through this thread – looks like a good idea to open a local interest bearing savings account – as described by GroveHillWanderer above:
“For instance, I have never filed a full tax return in Thailand but I do have a TIN which I got (in line with what was mentioned in an earlier post) so I could claim a refund on the 15% tax that was charged on an interest-bearing savings account. There is a form you have to fill out to claim the refund but it isn't a full tax return as I understand it, just a one-page form saying you're claiming a refund and stating the amount.”

Having this savings account could justify the issue of a Thai TIN, which could then be used elsewhere?
Just an update to the info in my earlier post (which was from February). Partly because posting about it had reminded me, I went in the following week to claim the tax refund and the clerk who submitted the request for me said that the older, shorter form is no longer used and she filled out the full, multi-page personal income tax return form on my behalf. Most of it, she left blank and only filled in the parts relevant to a refund.

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Re: Tax Residency (bank requirements)

Post by JohnD » Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:12 pm

GroveHillWanderer - many thanks for that update.

I think I'll try that but I'll wait for the baht to weaken a bit.
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Re: Tax Residency (bank requirements)

Post by hhinner » Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:26 pm

If you want a Thai TIN, just go and apply for one. If you're in Thailand for more than 180 days per year you are considered resident for tax purposes. You should file a tax return every year regardless of whether you have a job, bank account or any income at all. At least that's what they told me. 200 baht fine for non-compliance (they said).

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Re: Tax Residency (bank requirements)

Post by JohnD » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:29 am

Thanks for the info, I will apply for a Thai TIN.
Success may depend on where you apply.
I have read in another forum that tax authorities (e.g. Pattaya) will not issue a Thai TIN unless you have local income.

My comment earlier in this thread:
"What is interesting for me - after reading on the web - is that it is possible to get a Thai tax ID - with no local income.
Depend in which part of Thailand you live.
If I remember.,, the Thai Tax Office in Pattaya will tell you to go away, and not waste their time.
In some parts, the authorities do issue a Thai tax ID without any local income."

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Re: Tax Residency (bank requirements)

Post by StevePIraq » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:42 am

So what is the final outcome of this, if resident here for less that 180 days no TIN is required, so which countries TIN do I advise my UK bank as I do not pay tax anywhere.

Lloyds UK have now advised they will advise the relevant tax authority, I can only assume this is Thailand.
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Re: Tax Residency (bank requirements)

Post by Dannie Boy » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:01 pm

StevePIraq wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:42 am
So what is the final outcome of this, if resident here for less that 180 days no TIN is required, so which countries TIN do I advise my UK bank as I do not pay tax anywhere.

Lloyds UK have now advised they will advise the relevant tax authority, I can only assume this is Thailand.
I bank with HSBC and when I told them I live in Thailand but don’t have a TIN they accepted it and I’ve heard nothing since (must be about six months ago)

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Re: Tax Residency (bank requirements)

Post by Big Boy » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:18 pm

There were many questions on the form that I couldn't give a satisfactory answer to. I wrote a full explanation in a covering letter, and sent it to the UK. That was months ago, and I've heard nothing since. I guess I'm OK.
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Re: Tax Residency (bank requirements)

Post by StevePIraq » Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:25 pm

I have just returned from the Hua Hin Revenue office, where I had a very informative discussion and was advised the following:
You only need a Thai TIN if you have a business, work in Thailand or earn a taxable income in Thailand by any other means. If you do not earn a taxable income you do not need a Thai TIN.
They looked at the Lloyds letter and said to ignore.
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Re: Tax Residency (bank requirements)

Post by JohnD » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:56 am

StevePIraq wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:25 pm
I have just returned from the Hua Hin Revenue office, where I had a very informative discussion and was advised the following:
You only need a Thai TIN if you have a business, work in Thailand or earn a taxable income in Thailand by any other means. If you do not earn a taxable income you do not need a Thai TIN.
They looked at the Lloyds letter and said to ignore.
1. Thanks for feedback above.
Sooner or later, in my opinion they will need proof that you do not need to pay any kind of tax anywhere, this may be verified by data using your current*TIN (assuming you have listed all your world-wide assets, some tax authorities require this).
Saying you have no taxable income and live less than 180 days a year in any one place may be good enough for a while.
(The 180 day residency is the usually the first criteria to assign a country where your tax liabilities lie. Other criteria being income earned and property ownership in a country and this can take precedence over the 180 day residency.)

2. What if your overseas bank requests a TIN (or some equivalent data), otherwise they will freeze or close your account – there are stories like this.
The above would be a reasonable first response; even add a cursory statement that you reside in Thailand for ‘more than 180 days’ in a given year. In my opinion, this is better option than ‘less than 180 days’, to get them to back off.
It remains to be seen what will happen next – my guess is nothing for a year or two, hopefully several years.

3. My concern is that with a bank account and/or property in another overseas country (not Thailand), the bank or tax authority there will eventually insist on a current* TIN so that in theory they can go on-line and check you complete financial status – for tax evasion or illegal activities. This is the ultimate goal of national government.

4. I think that a current* TIN will be required for all of us, just when who knows. For this reason, a trip the local Thai revenue office may be necessary to ‘artificially’ generate a Thai TIN e.g. via a local bank account used to generate a local income statement. This could work for a while.
Further down the line, they will be looking for all assets and all income to be listed in one place under one current*TIN, so that they can check legality and see if they can tap into those monies for their own revenue coffers.

current* - I say current because I have one (we all do) but it’s from 6 years ago. They will want one from last year.

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Re: Tax Residency (bank requirements)

Post by Trevtherev » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:41 pm

This is a very interesting tax string and a subject that might have significant implications in the future for expats and those of us that enjoy living abroad.

My experience trying to satisfy the demands of both Barclays Bank and First Direct (FD) trying to complete all of this required tax information and proving what they consider to be valid TIN's has not been one of life's great experiences, think I now have this settled, but fingers are still crossed. Surprisingly out of these two UK based banks FD proved to be the most difficult to satisfy because they seem to treat all customers as if they only live in, or very close to Leeds by only giving 45 days to respond back to FD and keep providing an UK post paid return envelope to a overseas based customer. In fact it was this 45 days reply limit that seemed to create all of my problems because the FD letter's always seemed to arrived within my Hong Kong mail box on day 40 of this reporting period, and even after proving an explanation covering letter with the completed tax forms it was not until 4 rounds of requests that somebody within FD was able to eventually comprehend my problem and put me out of my misery. Another FD frustrating habit is they never seem date anything below the month and year so it makes it very hard to tie down any correspondence issue or posting date to again be specific within any letter to FD.

Sadly I don't think it is just FD that suffer from customer service departments that either do not bother to listen to their customers, or read past the first line of any letter of feedback or complaint that is sent to them. Possibly the customer service departments these days are full of staff busy on Facebook or Twitter while having their smartphone stuck in their field of vision during working hours. Possibly such bank customer feedback is only fed into a massive SMART ATM machine that also incorporates a cross cut paper shredder, all very reminiscent of the "Bad Robots" programme on the Comedy Central channel.

To also follow-up and basically confirm what StevePIraq has stated within is last message relating to Thailand. While recently completing my income tax clearance with the Hong Kong Revenue Department I had the opportunity to raise this very same Individual Tax Residency Self-Certification question with one of the senior tax inspectors/assessors. In essence he gave me a very similar explanation to what Steve has given within his entry of 26 April 2018, but with the added complication and caveat of the Hong Kong Identification Card number (HKID). This being, in Hong Kong many other Government accounts such as driving license, car registration, provident funds and income tax accounts are all associated with the (HKID) number. So what came out of this would be the fact that such national identification schemes and systems could make it very hard to duck under the income tax radar and I guess would make it much easier to identify who should be registered and possibly paying tax on such things as investments, share dividends, pension income, interest on savings and any income from property rental. Possibly if you are a shower curtain ring salesperson that lives out of a suitcase and continually travels the world you might be safe from the tax man.

As JohnD has implied, what might be coming in the future on this subject??

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Re: Tax Residency (bank requirements)

Post by handdrummer » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:15 pm

All govts. everywhere are collecting as much info as possible on everyone with a tax number, social security number, etc. I suspect there are at least 2 objects in mind: 1. Collect revenue. 2. Know where everyone is at all times.

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Re: Tax Residency (bank requirements)

Post by StevePIraq » Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:58 pm

handdrummer wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:15 pm
All govts. everywhere are collecting as much info as possible on everyone with a tax number, social security number, etc. I suspect there are at least 2 objects in mind: 1. Collect revenue. 2. Know where everyone is at all times.
Not all governments but certainly many are. It is too hard to go after the big guys so they go after the easy ones, you and me.

There are still many countries including the USA who have not signed up to the CRS, Thailand is still a long way off implementing anything. I hope it stays that way.

Big brother knows where you are if they really want to just by tracking your phone or computer.
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