Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Sub-forum for discussion on golf in Hua Hin and Thailand.
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SunandFun
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by SunandFun » Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:24 am

Johnnymac, He can't do that or at least he should not have done that. Not very sportsman like I would say. You played the provisional under the Rules. You were not aware of the Water Hazard. I would insist he put that ball up his... Oh sorry back to the Topic. If any thing similar happens like that again, Invoke Rule 3-3. That will teach him to play unfair. Then, when you are back to the clubhouse, or email, get the answer and then you can see which score counts before you settle up.
RULE 3-3. DOUBT AS TO PROCEDURE
a. Procedure
In stroke play, if a competitor is doubtful of his rights or the correct procedure during the play of a hole, he may, without penalty, complete the hole with two balls.
After the doubtful situation has arisen and before taking further action, the competitor must announce to his marker or fellow-competitor that he intends to play two balls and which ball he wishes to count if the Rules permit.
The competitor must report the facts of the situation to the Committee before returning his score card. If he fails to do so, he is disqualified. Note: If the competitor takes further action before dealing with the doubtful situation, Rule 3-3 is not applicable. The score with the original ball counts or, if the original ball is not one of the balls being played, the score with the first ball put into play counts, even if the Rules do not allow the procedure adopted for that ball. However, the competitor incurs no penalty for having played a second ball, and any penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball do not count in his score.
b. Determination of Score for Hole
(i) If the ball that the competitor selected in advance to count has been played in accordance with the Rules, the score with that ball is the competitor’s score for the hole. otherwise, the score with the other ball counts if the Rules allow the procedure adopted for that ball.
(ii) If the competitor fails to announce in advance his decision to complete the hole with two balls, or which ball he wishes to count, the score with the original ball counts, provided it has been played in accordance with the Rules. If the original ball is not one of the balls being played, the first ball put into play counts, provided it has been played in accordance with the Rules. Otherwise, the score with the other ball counts if the Rules allow the procedure adopted for that ball.
Note 1: If a competitor plays a second ball under Rule 3-3, the strokes made after this Rule has been invoked with the ball ruled not to count and penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball are disregarded.
Note 2: A second ball played under Rule 3-3 is not a provisional ball under Rule 27-2.

You will usually have someone at the golf course who has a basic knowledge of the Rules. They may be a starter, or course marshall, or the Local Pro. If not, send me an email and I will get back to you ASAP. If I am out and have limited time, I will give you the "quick answer" and then follow up latter with all of the details.
I hope this helps and I hope you don't get paired again with someone who uses trickery to try and gain an advantage.

HAPPY GOLFING!
I wouldn't have to manage my anger if people could learn to mange their stupidity!

Albie Quick
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by Albie Quick » Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:07 pm

Whilst having a beer in town a few days ago, I was reminded that my question regarding using the long putter to measure relief under penalty hadn't fully been resolved. (That's what happens when you don't use a pseudonym on this forum)!! S& F provided the information that it wasn't contrary to the 'Rules of Golf', but my concern was really about the moral issue involved. Anyway, for any 'anal retentives' like myself who may be remotely interested, here's the answer obtained from 2 caddies on the European Tour.

When the broomhandled putter first was used on the Tour, the players had an unofficial understanding that it wouldn't be used for the purpose of measuring relief from an unplayable lie. However, as time has progressed and the long putter has become more widely used, it has become 'accepted' as a normal club in the bag and therfore ok to use in those circumstances. Interestingly, at the present time, there a number of pros who have the long putter but won't use it for in relief situations because they consider it to be unfair on their fellow pros who use the regulation putter. :cheers:
[i]'The ability to recognise the extent of your knowledge on any particular subject is a condition which, (unfortunately), far too few people are afflicted with'.[/i]

SunandFun
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by SunandFun » Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:27 pm

Nothing will resolve a nagging question quicker and better than a cold beer! :cheers: Glad you have some temporary peace about the "Broom Handle Putter." Bad thing about a non binding agreement, although it was meant in good faith by those that agreed, that I am sure. Let's see who wins the Open and what equipment they have. I can say with authority, that this is currently and will continue to be discussed. But, no changes until 2016 on this issue I'm afraid.
:D
I wouldn't have to manage my anger if people could learn to mange their stupidity!

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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by SunandFun » Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:31 pm

Albie, Let's try to do some research on wins with and without a longer putter. Be interesting to see the results. I am off to the US on Thursday so no time for a while, but will start researching as soon as I can.
I wouldn't have to manage my anger if people could learn to mange their stupidity!

johnnymac
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by johnnymac » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:21 pm

SunandFun wrote:Johnnymac, He can't do that or at least he should not have done that. Not very sportsman like I would say. You played the provisional under the Rules. You were not aware of the Water Hazard. I would insist he put that ball up his... Oh sorry back to the Topic. If any thing similar happens like that again, Invoke Rule 3-3. That will teach him to play unfair. Then, when you are back to the clubhouse, or email, get the answer and then you can see which score counts before you settle up.
RULE 3-3. DOUBT AS TO PROCEDURE
a. Procedure
In stroke play, if a competitor is doubtful of his rights or the correct procedure during the play of a hole, he may, without penalty, complete the hole with two balls.
After the doubtful situation has arisen and before taking further action, the competitor must announce to his marker or fellow-competitor that he intends to play two balls and which ball he wishes to count if the Rules permit.
The competitor must report the facts of the situation to the Committee before returning his score card. If he fails to do so, he is disqualified. Note: If the competitor takes further action before dealing with the doubtful situation, Rule 3-3 is not applicable. The score with the original ball counts or, if the original ball is not one of the balls being played, the score with the first ball put into play counts, even if the Rules do not allow the procedure adopted for that ball. However, the competitor incurs no penalty for having played a second ball, and any penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball do not count in his score.
b. Determination of Score for Hole
(i) If the ball that the competitor selected in advance to count has been played in accordance with the Rules, the score with that ball is the competitor’s score for the hole. otherwise, the score with the other ball counts if the Rules allow the procedure adopted for that ball.
(ii) If the competitor fails to announce in advance his decision to complete the hole with two balls, or which ball he wishes to count, the score with the original ball counts, provided it has been played in accordance with the Rules. If the original ball is not one of the balls being played, the first ball put into play counts, provided it has been played in accordance with the Rules. Otherwise, the score with the other ball counts if the Rules allow the procedure adopted for that ball.
Note 1: If a competitor plays a second ball under Rule 3-3, the strokes made after this Rule has been invoked with the ball ruled not to count and penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball are disregarded.
Note 2: A second ball played under Rule 3-3 is not a provisional ball under Rule 27-2.

You will usually have someone at the golf course who has a basic knowledge of the Rules. They may be a starter, or course marshall, or the Local Pro. If not, send me an email and I will get back to you ASAP. If I am out and have limited time, I will give you the "quick answer" and then follow up latter with all of the details.
I hope this helps and I hope you don't get paired again with someone who uses trickery to try and gain an advantage.

HAPPY GOLFING!
Nice S&F - I'll definitely remember that one!

Have a good trip back to the States

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T.I.G.R.
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by T.I.G.R. » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:09 am

I'm surprised no-one noted Keegan Bradley using his twelve foot long putter last night to measure the possibility of getting relief from an uplayable lie. Fortunately, even with the pole he couldn't avail himself of that particular form of relief.

Also noted in the telecast was the continuing discussion of what the R&A is going to do in the next wave of rules changes regarding anchoring of the long putters.....personally I think you shouldn't putt with anything longer than 35 inches but I'm a traditionalist on putters. Can't believe all the young guys using the long putters now.......kind of like cheating if you ask me!

GO TIGER!!!!!!!! and before any grief comes my way remember he's half Thai!

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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by aragon » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:34 pm

On the old chestnut of belly and broomhandle putters, intersting to note that both protagonists in the mix at the end of The Open yesterday use one or t'other, such a shame, I know they're perfectly legal, but they're also perfectly against the spirit of the game, IMHO. :cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

Having said that, fantastic to see Ernie back winning tournaments again :thumb: and your heart has to go out to Scotty, what a terrible, terrible way to lose the tournament :( , let's hope he recovers in the same way that McIroy did after his Masters implosion.
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by SunandFun » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:49 pm

Reading between the lines...my guess would be that the length will not be addressed. But they will eliminate using an anchor point. So it can only be so long. Sort of self regulating for the length. Your thoughts?
I wouldn't have to manage my anger if people could learn to mange their stupidity!

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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by aragon » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:08 am

I think certainly if they address (i.e. ban) the issue of having an anchor point, which I believe is a major component concerning these putters, then that would certainly limit the length issue.
“He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire.” Sir Winston Churchill

Before marriage, a man yearns for the woman he loves.
After marriage, the 'Y' becomes silent.

heartofmidlothian
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by heartofmidlothian » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:06 am

Hi Sunandfun,
I have another question for you that just happened to a friend of mine. He hit his ball and provisional ball into the same spot of deep rough. Does he have 5 mins to find both balls or 5 mins for each ball? Would the situation be any different if he hit one left and one right?

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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by SunandFun » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:18 am

heartofmidlothian wrote:Hi Sunandfun,
I have another question for you that just happened to a friend of mine. He hit his ball and provisional ball into the same spot of deep rough. Does he have 5 mins to find both balls or 5 mins for each ball? Would the situation be any different if he hit one left and one right?
Decision 27/4
Time Permitted for Search for Original Ball and Provisional Ball
Q. Is a player allowed five minutes to search for his original ball and five more minutes to search for his provisional ball, or just a total of five minutes?
A. If the two balls are so close together that, in effect, both balls would be searched for simultaneously, a total of five minutes for search is allowed. otherwise, the player is allowed to search five minutes for each ball.

Yes, if he hit one left and one right, five minutes each. Gonna be a long day for him.
I wouldn't have to manage my anger if people could learn to mange their stupidity!

heartofmidlothian
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Re: Hua Hin Golf Gossip

Post by heartofmidlothian » Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:42 pm

Got a rules question for sun and fun. Do you get relief if your ball lies in a plug mark (on the fairway)? This plug mark was not mine. Bloody hard to hit out of a plug mark - give me a divot anytime!
Just played Banyan and Black Mountain, for the first time in a year. Both are in excellent condition but was surprised that Banyans greens were quicker, although I thought the green speed at Black Mountain was better for handicap golfers. Excellent changes to holes 1, 9 and 18 at BM. Really begs the question why they weren't done that way when the course was built? Fairways are beautiful at both and really puts the other courses to shame. High green fees at both though. Still feel that Banyan really need to do something with that 17th hole. A new green complex short and left would turn it from the worst hole into one of the best holes. Everytime I play it I am amazed that the green was put where it is when it is just asking to be in the natural bowl area short left.

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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by benmo » Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:17 pm

I am Sure rule 25/2 allows relief on any closely mown area through the green

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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by PET » Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:54 pm

benmo wrote:I am Sure rule 25/2 allows relief on any closely mown area through the green

Yes you are correct if the ball was ''embedded in its own pitch-mark'', but the whole purpose of this question is that it was in a pitch-mark created by another persons ball.

I donot know the rule but common sence tells me that there is no relief and the ball must be played as it lies - same as being in a bad divot.
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Re: Hua Hin Golf Gossip

Post by SunandFun » Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:03 pm

heartofmidlothian wrote:Got a rules question for sun and fun. Do you get relief if your ball lies in a plug mark (on the fairway)? This plug mark was not mine. Bloody hard to hit out of a plug mark - give me a divot anytime!
Just played Banyan and Black Mountain, for the first time in a year. Both are in excellent condition but was surprised that Banyans greens were quicker, although I thought the green speed at Black Mountain was better for handicap golfers. Excellent changes to holes 1, 9 and 18 at BM. Really begs the question why they weren't done that way when the course was built? Fairways are beautiful at both and really puts the other courses to shame. High green fees at both though. Still feel that Banyan really need to do something with that 17th hole. A new green complex short and left would turn it from the worst hole into one of the best holes. Everytime I play it I am amazed that the green was put where it is when it is just asking to be in the natural bowl area short left.

Sorry Benmo, not as easy as it seems.

25-2. EMBEDDED BALL
A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely-mown area through the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green. “closely-mown area” means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

The key words here are "in it's own pitch-mark." If it's not certain that it is in it's own pitch-mark, then no free relief is available. (If there are more than one pitch-marks close by.) On the PGA, PGTI and Asian Tour, I have seen balls that bounce out of their own pitch-mark into another pitch-mark and this was observed by both TV and spectators. Free Relief denied. But if a ball does not bounce and it is certain that the ball is in it's own pitch-mark then free relief is available even if their are other pitch-marks close by.

Just a note that at most Professional Tournaments, the Local Rule extends relief for an Embedded Ball, to "through the green."

Regarding the 17th at Banyan, find out who the course designer was and study their design concepts. Sometimes there are books written on these designers. This might help you to better understand the course design. I am yet to play Banyan, so I can not comment other than this.

Happy Golfing! :cheers:
I wouldn't have to manage my anger if people could learn to mange their stupidity!

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