Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Sub-forum for discussion on golf in Hua Hin and Thailand.
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Albie Quick
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by Albie Quick » Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:04 am

I've just seen Marcel Siem use his broonhandled putter to measure his free drop. I thought there was a palayers' ageement not to do this. What's next, a player with 2 putters, one 3 metres long just carried for the purpose of making the most of a free or penalty drop. R & A where are you! ?!
[i]'The ability to recognise the extent of your knowledge on any particular subject is a condition which, (unfortunately), far too few people are afflicted with'.[/i]

PET
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by PET » Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:40 am

Albie Quick wrote:I've just seen Marcel Siem use his broonhandled putter to measure his free drop. I thought there was a palayers' ageement not to do this. What's next, a player with 2 putters, one 3 metres long just carried for the purpose of making the most of a free or penalty drop. R & A where are you! ?!
They can use any club in their bag - I first noticed Bradley doing it at a USPGA event earlier this year - IMO it should not be allowed
VERAX - What matters in life is not where you are from but where you are going.

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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by SunandFun » Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:38 am

In 2004 Maximum length for club shafts was introduced, being 48 inches (1219mm) for all clubs except putters, with a grace period for current clubs which exceed the specifications until 31 Dec, 2004. Before that, it could be even longer! I believe the "design of the head" has given more of an advantage than the length of the club. (Due to MOI) I also believe that using the "Rules of Golf" to "take advantage" of relief is fine. As a Professional Referee, I have no problem with this. I have also seen a short club (Usually a putter too) give a similar advantage in determining the nearest point of relief. Some times it gets you out of trouble, sometimes it puts you in unplayable conditions. It all balances out IMHO. Sometimes the ball bounces into the fairway, sometimes it bounces into the rough. That is golf.
The RULES of GOLF
APPENDIX II
DESIGN of CLUBS
c. Length
The overall length of the club must be at least 18 inches (0.457 m) and, except for putters, must not exceed 48 inches (1.219 m).
For woods and irons, the measurement of length is taken when the club is lying on a horizontal plane and the sole is set against a 60 degree plane. The length is defined as the distance from the point of the intersection between the two planes to the top of the grip.
For putters, the measurement of length is taken from the top of the grip along the axis of the shaft or a straight line extension of it to the sole of the club.

Golf Teaches that both SUCCESS and FAILURE are Temporary!
I wouldn't have to manage my anger if people could learn to mange their stupidity!

Albie Quick
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by Albie Quick » Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:58 pm

Hi S & F,

I don't understand your point that a short club can sometimes provide an advantage in the penalty drop situation. My understanding is that the drop can be made under penalty 'within 2 club lengths', which means that even when using a driver to measure the dropping distance, a player could, in effect, drop the ball a matter of inches from its original position if it was advantageous to do so. :cheers:
[i]'The ability to recognise the extent of your knowledge on any particular subject is a condition which, (unfortunately), far too few people are afflicted with'.[/i]

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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by SunandFun » Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:54 pm

Hi Abbie,
I knew that might prompt a question.
When determining the nearest point of relief, The Player should select the club he will use for his next shot if the condition did not exist. If he selects his 18 inch putter, stating that he simply wants to advance his ball out of the situation it is in, he can use it to measure for the nearest point. (As long as he can fairly justify his reason for using a club, you can not refuse him to use it.) Now if the ball is on a large drain cover (24-2 Obstruction, Free Relief) say 24 inches square, on the far side from his stance, (for a right handed player) and the player wishes to end up on the same far side due to a tree or tall rough on the near side of the drain preventing his next shot, he might accomplish this by measuring with his shortest club. This would show that his nearest point of relief would be on the preferred side.
Example with 8 iron: He takes his stance off of the drain and then uses an 8 iron to measure his nearest point of relief, once established is say 30 inches. Now he then measures the nearest point of relief on the near side, which would be slightly off of the drain, say 26 inches from his ball. His nearest point of relief is 26 inches and on the wrong side where he does not want to be.
Example using an 18 inch putter: He takes his stance off of the drain on the far side using his 18 inch putter and his nearest point of relief is now 22 inches. He then measures the nearest point of relief on the near side, which would be slightly off of the drain, say 26 inches from his ball. His nearest point of relief is 22 inches. So having the shorter club, places his ball closer to his feet.
He must take complete relief from the nearest point (26 inches with an 8 iron or 22 inches with a putter). Once the nearest point of relief is established, he then can use any club (usually a driver) to proceed to measure his relief of one club length from that point. Not many have experienced this or even know about it, but I have both experienced and Ruled on it. Note: A player cannot take an unusual stance (play left handed) or change direction of play in order to get free relief. It is easier to show this than to explain. If it is not clear, let me know and I will draw up a diagram to show.

A similar situation exists when a player should be taking relief in a bush or tree or other unplayable condition. Nearest point is nearest point. Does not mean that you have a shot or even a stance. Most players want to take relief where they have a shot and not take relief at the nearest point. That is why you see the Pros always call for a Referee. They do not want to make a mistake and play from the wrong place and risk a 2 Stroke Penalty or worse DQ.

Abbie, where do you play golf? I am joining Springfield next week. I will be coming in December and would love to have a round with you if you are in Hua Hin. Happy Golfing!

:cheers:
I wouldn't have to manage my anger if people could learn to mange their stupidity!

Albie Quick
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by Albie Quick » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:30 am

Hi S & F,

Thanks for your explanation, detailed and informative as ever.

I am a member of Lake View but play most of my golf with the Hua Hin Golf Society. Contact me when you're over and we'll have a game. I'm over here until late November and then go back to the UK for a few months. :cheers:

Albie
[i]'The ability to recognise the extent of your knowledge on any particular subject is a condition which, (unfortunately), far too few people are afflicted with'.[/i]

Albie Quick
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by Albie Quick » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:33 am

Sorry S & F, I misread your date of arrival (yet another 'senior moment'). I'll be leaving on 26th November and normally stay in the UK for 3/4 months depending on family commitments. I'll look forward to a game when I get back. :cheers:
[i]'The ability to recognise the extent of your knowledge on any particular subject is a condition which, (unfortunately), far too few people are afflicted with'.[/i]

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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by SunandFun » Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:34 am

Hi Albie,
We will play in April. I will be coming for six months probably. Will join The Hua Hin Golf Society at that time. Setting up the condo mainly in December, but I am sure I will get a few rounds in. Senior moments are not new to me. I have had them all of my life, only now get to extend their name. LOL
I wouldn't have to manage my anger if people could learn to mange their stupidity!

heartofmidlothian
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by heartofmidlothian » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:54 pm

Very simple rules question for you S&F. If a ball is stuck or plugged in a riveted bunker face (sod wall) - what is the ruling?

SunandFun
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by SunandFun » Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:45 am

First see definition of "Bunker."

BUNKER
A “bunker” is a hazard consisting of a prepared area of ground, often a hollow, from which turf or soil has been removed and replaced with sand or the like.
Grass-covered ground bordering or within a bunker, including a stacked turf face (whether grass-covered or earthen), is not part of the bunker. A wall or lip of the bunker not covered with grass is part of the bunker. The margin of a bunker extends vertically downwards, but not upwards.
A ball is in a bunker when it lies in or any part of it touches the bunker.


Next, look at "Embedded Ball." Unless there is a Local Rule allowing for relief "Through the Green" for Embedded Ball, then no relief is available as Stacked Turf would not be "closely-mown."

25-2. EMBEDDED BALL
A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely-mown area through the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the hole. the ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green. “closely-mown area” means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

DECISION 25-2/5
Ball Embedded in Grass Bank or Face of Bunker
Q. Are grass banks or faces of bunkers considered to be “closely mown areas” under Rule 25-2 (Embedded Ball) and may relief be taken from them under that Rule?
A. No, not unless they are cut to fairway height or less.

Finally your answer is "Play it as it lies" or "Declare the Ball Unplayable."

The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course, except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.
If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:
a. Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
b. drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or
c. drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.
If the unplayable ball is in a bunker, the player may proceed under clause a, b or c. If he elects to proceed under clause b or c, a ball must be dropped in the bunker. (If the ball is plugged in a stacked turf face of the bunker it is not in the bunker, so you do not have to drop it in the bunker) When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball or substitute a ball.

I LOVE THE RULES! :dance:
I wouldn't have to manage my anger if people could learn to mange their stupidity!

lomuamart
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by lomuamart » Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:55 pm

Here's a query for S&F or anyone else who can help.
Was recently playing with three friends and a fourth, who was injured, joined us just to walk around. I was having a torrid time with my putting and early on on the back 9, the "spectator" called over to me saying "I know what you're doing wrong. It's xyz...". He elaborated a bit as well. One of the players responded with "where's this coaching coming from. Loss of two holes" (he and I were playing a friendly match play game. "I'm only a spectator" came the reply.
Anyway, we continued and about the 16th, the spectator gave me more advice.
Now, I've got the up-to-date rules and decisions here at home and so looked at this situation afterwards. There dosn't seem to be anything covering this - ie advice from a spectator. I definitely did not ask for advice at any time.
So, what should the ruling be? Should I have told him to be quiet (which I didn't) and not been penalised the first time? But the second time, as I hadn't said anything, maybe I should have been penalised as going against the spirit of the game?
Whilst I doubt it would happen in real life, I can't imagine Rory getting penalised if some spectator told him to "slow down a bit" when he hadn't asked for the advice.
Just looking for some clarification.

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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by SunandFun » Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:22 pm

No Penalty. Anyone in the group could have asked him to stop, as he is giving advise during a round which is against The Spirit of the Game even though it does not breach The Rules of Golf. You or no one else is required to do so. Who ever is giving the advise is subject to the penalty and since he was simply a spectator, no penalty could be applied. In a real Match, he could have been asked to be removed by your Opponent, but still no penalty.

I personally hate it when someone tries to tell me what I am doing wrong. It usually is not that I don't know what I am doing wrong, it is usually that I can't stop doing what is wrong. Sort of like blaming the Caddie for giving the wrong line when I can't put the ball on that line any way. I tell people to try this: on the practice green on a level area, put a tee in the ground 15 feet away and try to hit. I can do it, but not every time. Not the caddies fault is it?
I wouldn't have to manage my anger if people could learn to mange their stupidity!

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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by johnnymac » Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:32 pm

Question about lateral hazards.

I was in a situation where I was playing a course I hadn't played before. My drive was a bit wayward so I played a provisional. When I walked up to where my first shot should have been I discovered that it was a lateral water hazard. I wanted to play from the hazard but one of the guys in my group insisted that I play the provisional instead of dropping at the hazard.

I've read the rule but am still a bit confused.

Can anyone shed any light on this?

SunandFun
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by SunandFun » Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:43 pm

Johnnymac,
The answer would depend on the reason for hitting a provisional ball. If you thought the ball may be lost, other than in a water hazard, then you can play the ball in the water hazard, and this would be your second shot. You could also drop a ball under Rule 26 with a one stroke penalty. You would disregard your provisional ball. (Same for Lateral Water Hazard.) While on the Tee, if you were "virtually certain" that the ball was in the water hazard, then no matter what you call the ball when you tee it up (calling it a provisional ball) does not make it a provisional ball. It thus becomes the ball in play and you cannot play the ball in the water hazard as it becomes a "lost ball." When you play your provisional, you would then be playing your fourth shot.

27-2. PROVISIONAL BALL
a. Procedure if a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. the player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.
If he fails to do so and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball and becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1); the original ball is lost.

c. When Provisional Ball to be Abandoned
If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue playing the original ball. If it is known or virtually certain that the original ball is in a water hazard, the player may proceed in accordance with Rule 26-1. In either situation, if the player makes any further strokes at the provisional ball, he is playing a wrong ball and the provisions of Rule 15-3 apply.
DECISION 27-2a/2.2
Possibility that original Ball is in Water hazard May not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball
Q. Is it true that, if a player’s original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, the player is precluded from playing a provisional ball?
A. No. even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned – Rule 27-2c.

HAPPY GOLFING! Thanks for the question.
I wouldn't have to manage my anger if people could learn to mange their stupidity!

johnnymac
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Re: Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

Post by johnnymac » Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:12 pm

Thanks SunandFun - nice explanation.

I guess the annoying thing for me is that someone in the group told me there was a water hazard around there after I'd declared and played the provisional and he then insisted I play the provisional ball and not from the hazard!

I'll chalk that one down to experience :wink:

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