tax at murphs

[hhfarang]

^ The problem lies in variation from establishment to establishment. If VAT is required by all bars (restaurants or other businesses) it should be shown on the receipt and added to the bill consistently so that the customer knows where their money is going. El Murphy's is doing this (rightly in my mind) where others, even though it may be in your bin, are hiding it within the prices. What is needed is consistency to avoid all confusion but as the government does not seem to enforce VAT or that it is displayed in the customer check there will never be consistency as it is left up to the individual business owner.

In the U.S. too (like the U.K.), any taxes are displayed on the receipt and added at time of settlement.

I'm feeling the crunch too, but a few baht in beer prices or tax is not important. If the prices go up, I drink less (or drink at home), but I prefer a quality relaxing environment in which to consume said beer to sitting out in front of a Thai Mom and Pop shop at a picnic table just to be able to consume the most cheap Chang I can (which is what many expats are now doing here).

[barrys]

hhfarang wrote: "If VAT is required by all bars (restaurants or other businesses) ..."

Just to clarify: any business of any type is required to register for, charge, collect and pass on VAT to the revenue authority once their annual turnover exceeds THB 1,800,000, i.e they have to sell more than 150,000 bahts-worth of whatever it is they sell on a regular monthly basis.

This therefore excludes a lot of small businesses and is avoided by many others through constructive accounting.

As a business paying VAT, you are simply an unpaid tax collector for the government.
It creates extra work and costs within the business plus additional accountant's costs.

As far as El Murphy's is concerned, Eddie and Jonathon's policy has been consistent and constant right from the outset and is about as transparent as you can get - albeit only at the time of payment for those that don't read the menu fully or haven't read the threads here.

I presume they want to stress what they actually charge and separate this from what they have to levy for the government.
As I said, that is their policy, they're open about it and its officially receipted.
It's also a class venue with lots of creature comforts you don't get elsewhere in HH, plus great music and food and quite a variety of beverages.

I can't honestly think of anywhere else in town that provides all of this at such value for money.

They certainly aren't conning anyone - simply pointing out the legal constraints they are under.
As another VAT-registered business helping fill the exchequer's coffers, I do have some sympathy for them.

It reminds me of a sign I saw recently at the Cabbages & Condoms restaurant in Pattaya which really puts this in perspective.

It reads:

Please do not steal - the government doesn't like competition!

[nobull]

Deleted - as all bull.

[lindosfan1]

Funny first post on the forum

[Grim Reaper]

nobull - You should have read the terms and conditions of using this website when you signed up and agreed to them.

Your post is full of conjecture and you have no idea what Admin and the moderators discuss behind the scenes, also discussing moderator actions is against forum rules.

As you obviously think you know about HHAD forum history and previous moderator actions it occurs that you may be a member under another name. Why not grow a pair and use your real name when signing in to make such comments. Or is it that maybe you are a previous banned member, either way, nobull sounds more like allbull and is also banned.

[margaretcarnes]

HHF - maybe there is a Brit vs American difference of views coming out here as to what is seen as 'hidden' against what is seen as 'transparent'?
Brits are so used to the inclusion of VAT these days that we don't see it as a 'hidden' charge - it just exists - and we just see the total purchase price and take it or leave it (apart from those things like car repairs etc mentioned earlier - where VAT is added to the quote.)

Clearly though there are differences and anomallys within the Thai VAT system. The requirement to register - then to only be charged the VAT on a certain level of takings. Consistency would certainly aid transparency but is beyond the control of business owners, and I think we all appreciate that.

I agree with Pete - it's a ridiculous and cumbersome tax in any country - but then so is a system of seperate State and Federal taxation IMO

[barrys]

magaretcarnes wrote: "Clearly though there are differences and anomallys within the Thai VAT system. The requirement to register - then to only be charged the VAT on a certain level of takings."

A slight misunderstanding here, I think, Margaret:
The turnover threshold for mandatory VAT registration is 1.8 million baht per annum.
You then have to charge VAT on ALL sales, i.e. from the very first baht.
You can then, theoretically, offset the VAT the business is charged by its suppliers, e.g. shops, service providers, etc.
The big problem is that because most private businesses here avoid VAT registration, they won't give you a VAT receipt, which means there's precious little to offset!!
Registered companies, especially those with Farang staff/owners, don't have the luxury of not registering as they are under a legal obligation to return a substantial profit in order to get work permits for farangs in the first place and those required profits presuppose a turnover figure in excess of the threshold.

Businesses below the threshold are not required to register.

I believe the system is the same in Europe, with a threshold also applying.

[margaretcarnes]

Ah thanks Barry.

[Super Joe]

Registered companies, especially those with Farang staff/owners, don't have the luxury of not registering as they are under a legal obligation to return a substantial profit in order to get work permits for farangs in the first place and those required profits presuppose a turnover figure in excess of the threshold.

That's right, I didn't even realise I was registered for VAT until I got a bill for the previous 3 years. Once the bill was issued they wouldn't grant an extension until it was settled. And once registered you are liable even if turnover under 1.8m, but you can 'un-register' subsequently if turnover low, I was told.

I presume they want to stress what they actually charge and separate this from what they have to levy for the government. As I said, that is their policy, they're open about it and its officially receipted.

That's a key point here, if I decide to open a place next door the same, but don't fancy the hassle of a WP much, then straight away I'm 7% cheaper, but probably 15% seeing as once you're in 'the system', there's far more to pay.

So I can be greedy, put my prices up 10% and still undercut next door by 5%. I'm an illegal immigrant, he's doing everything right and contributing to the country, yet I get more business because I'm charging less (while making more out of you.) Next door wants to let everyone know what he actually charges personally, so separates the government's VAT part, then that comes across negatively to some as discussed already.

But of a 'heads I win, tails you lose' kind of situation.


SJ

[Dr Mike]

Breakfast at E-M is excellent 5 items for 99b when the bill comes its--106b
OMG--106b--its still very cheap.

and talking of Canada they add the provincial 7% tax first, then the National tax 5% on that amount--so you are paying a tax on tax. Then the 10% service on top of that so you pay service on tax and service on tax on tax --so they add 23.5% to the stated menu price-- E-M's 7% looks OK to Canadians.

[richard]

Well hit El Murfs for a 7am breakie

I was the only customer and it only took 10 minutes for the cleaner to ask me if I wanted to eat

Got a coffee, ordered GAMMON eggs and chips

Got BACON eggs and chips

OK really but despite coaxing I could not muster a smile from the waitress or the cleaner who insisted on me moving my feet whilst eating to wash the floor

All in all OKish but the bill was baffling. Basic prices + rounding and then Vat. Basic and Vat we all know about but rounding. No point in asking as they were not really interested in me being there and probably hadn't a clue

For those out there that like the place. Good luck and enjoy!

[ste860]

at least you know they clean all the floor richard , and im pretty sure where ever you go at that time of the morning a smile is quite hard to get,you should see my lot at that time,you seem to always to be having a dig at el murphies or victoria ,maybe its time you opened a cafe ,to show everyone how it should be done

and im not getting at you ,but im pretty sure its very hard even getting the staff to turn up , never mind smile all the time,

[richard]

Point taken but I have no problems getting smiles at what ever hour in my other haunts and why do the cleaners have to ask the punters what they want?

Maybe I should open a cafe and show how it should be done

Staff attitude and turning up? It's called incentification. Some bars and some restaurants do it successfully

[moja]

Point taken but I have no problems getting smiles at what ever hour in my other haunts and why do the cleaners have to ask the punters what they want?

Maybe I should open a cafe and show how it should be done

Staff attitude and turning up? It's called incentification. Some bars and some restaurants do it successfully

incentification??

[dtaai-maai]

Richard, you never cease to amaze me. You have taken so much flak for your restaurant comments, negative and positive, that you've lost all credibility, but you just keep 'em coming!

What exactly are you trying to achieve with the above post? Are you warning the hordes of 7 a.m. breakfast customers that there might be some confusion between gammon and bacon? (They both come from a pig - you've been here long enough to know that that makes them pretty much the same). Or that they weren't fawning all over you? If you really feel strongly enough to publicise your views, why not email or pm murf and complain in person?

But just for once - why not let it go?

I can just imagine the sort of smiles you get when people see you coming.

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