Depression / Bipolar Disorder

[sargeant]

We have all heard that one before MrP you will be back trolling for your cause

check out the thread i agree with you on

[Super Joe]

My statement was a statement of principle. Obviously when you get down to deciding on which remedy to apply, you will investigate and exclude those that carry unacceptable risk.

Yes, a statement of your 'principle'. Not a statement of the principles of naturopathic medicine, as you have always portrayed it to be. Naturopathy does not support the views you have expressed in this thread, not on food & nutrition being responsible for bipolar disorder, not on the role of a chemical imbalance of the brain, not on chemical & toxic compounds being used to treat said imbalance, and not on modern medicine being ineffective in treating bipolar disorder. The complete opposite in fact when it comes to severe cases of bipolar...
From a naturopathy website:
Should you wish to pursue a more natural approach to treatment there are various options that should be explored. Because bipolar disorder generally requires conventional drug treatment, caution should be exercised when combining the two as there are certain natural remedies for Bipolar disorder which may be incompatible with the psychiatric drugs.

I think we know that 'chemical coshes' reduce suicides by turning you into a chemically-lobotomized shuffling hulk. You provide no sources so I don't know whether you are pulling all this from Harold Shipman or Stephen Barrett. India and China's suicide rates are probably due to greater population density, poverty and Monsanto and other capitalist monopolists killing off all their farmers.

So you acknowledge modern treatments are keeping people alive. That's good. This impression you give of no-one ever being cured and spending the rest of their days hooked on psyc meds, is ofcourse, conspiracy tosh. Given that only one third of Americans suffering from depression are on antidepressant medication, then the total number of diagnosed sufferers of depression who take the meds for longer than 10 years... is below 5%. And this the 'most medicated' country in the world, where are all your chemical zombies?...

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Why are you tossing Ayurveda into the ring? I have never mentioned it as a remedy for mental disorders and would try the basics first. Clean the body, flood it with nutrients, exercise, avoid or resolve emotional and psychological stress and pedantic lawyers and learn some relaxation techniques. If it doesn't work, and there are no guarantees, go back to your Doctor.

Your detox program recommended it several times, that's why I mentioned it. Naturopaths do not recommend just the above as treatment for bipolar disorder, an important part of the treatment and for depression yes, but not Bipolar. They propose treatments directly targetting the imbalance of the brain, herbal treatments and even conventional medicines where neccessary.

Thanks for posting this recognition that modern medicine has failed and needs the help of 'quack', 'CT' alternatives.

Lol, you didn't read the article did you. Naturopathic medicine eliciting the help of modern principles and practices in order to become safer and more effective is an indication of failure is it I think you'll find it's an exercise in de-quackery...
"Naturopathic physicians are contributing to research and adapting modern scientific principles into clinical practice. "The mission of the Naturopathic Physicians Research Institute is to conduct research on the clinical practice and outcomes of naturopathic physicians in order to improve the health of their patients. Natural methods and chemicals are not necessarily safer or more effective than artificial or synthetic ones; any treatment capable of eliciting an effect may also have deleterious side effects. Naturopathic physicians acknowledge these dangers"


The terminology you use such as 'the help of alternative medicine', is something that's been drummed into you by poisonous websites like Mike 'The Health Ranger' Adams & conspiracy sites. Your consistent viewpoint is that modern medicine is chemical & toxic, that 'alternative' is totally natural and the only thing that can remedy you, and that modern medicine can not possibly contain plant/herb compounds. It's the biggest load of conspiracy nonsense going...
- A herb is a plant or plant part valued for its medicinal qualities, producing and containing a variety of chemical substances that act upon the body.
- According to the WHO approx. 25% of modern drugs used in the U.S. have been derived from plants.
- 75% of plants that provide active ingredients for prescription drugs came to the attention of researchers because of their use in traditional medicine.
- At least 7,000 medical compounds in the modern pharmacopoeia are derived from plants.
- Insulin's active ingredient is a plant extract.

This article sums up the conspiracy theorists stance perfectly...
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/ind ... dichotomy/
First and foremost, herbs and plants that are used for medicinal purposes are drugs – they are as much drugs as any manufactured pharmaceutical. A drug is any chemical or combination of chemicals that has biological activity within the body above and beyond their purely nutritional value. Herbs have little to no nutritional value, but they do contain various chemicals, some with biological activity. Herbs are drugs. The distinction between herbs and pharmaceuticals is therefore a false dichotomy. This false dichotomy is extremely counterproductive and ultimately harmful to consumers.

SJ

[Pleng]

This thread has now twice been dis railed by Mr Plumb and his respondents. It's already had to be split once! It amazes me that these conversations need to repeatedly take place, but all the more so in such a sensitive thread. The OP is going to get no help from your ramblings!

[Dannie Boy]

This thread has now twice been dis railed by Mr Plumb and his respondents. It's already had to be split once! It amazes me that these conversations need to repeatedly take place, but all the more so in such a sensitive thread. The OP is going to get no help from your ramblings!

[poosmate]

The OP is going to get no help from your ramblings!

This is a discussion forum not a doctors.
If people are foolish enough to share their personal health and personality disorders with a bunch of sarcastic p#ss takers and Mr plum they should not expect a sensible medical diagnosis.

[samman]

Shame about this really. Depression is real. Yes people can feel down or "fed up" and that is a normal part of life and death. There is no comparison between that and clinical depression or the depressive cycle of a Bi Polar sufferer . No one knows what causes it and anyone who claims otherwise is wrong. Yes exercise and controlled diet can help with the symptons enough to allow the sufferer time to regain some balance in some instances. And can't do any harm. Prescription medicines can also allow the sufferer to gain some control and help them survive. I think of clinical depression as a bullet. It may not kill you straight off but it can wound and damage you. You are never the same again. And the would can open and fester. You are always scarred and sometime that is too much.
I have a great deal of respect for Mr Plum, Richard and Sargeant all dealing with things in there own way. There are usually many triggers to the plummet into depression and you cannot get away from, throw away or avoid them all. The worse ones are in your own head. So running away is impossible. Self medicating on alcohol doesn't help as every suicidal depressive learns, successful or not!
When systems close down there is nothing but that curled up, naked psyche, alone in the corner of the dark room called the mind.

[Takiap]

Addressing the route cause is of course the best path to follow, but in the OP's case, I believe that's an option. No offense intended Major. The only advice I can give, is that you just try to enjoy life as much as you possibly can. Of course, it's easy for me to say this, but I honestly don't know what else to say.

Good luck

[J.J.B.]

It's important to remember that psychiatry and psychology are two very different fields of study and substituting either their cause or treatments is very risky although they are both important in the area of psychotherapy. Psychiatry is mainly concerned with physiological, biochemical imbalances within our central nervous system (not only the brain). Since we are all simply a collection of chemicals anyway, there is significant evidence backing-up why trying to bring them into balance can be beneficial for a variety of illnesses. "Disorders" and "Syndromes" are terms used by medics to describe a collection or cluster of symptoms in a patient that may have similarities to a separate patient. So while I and my neighbour might be diagnosed with the same disorder, we wouldn't necessarily have the same or even similar symptoms.

Depression is a genuine and horrible condition as well defined in both the DSM-IV and ICD-10 diagnostic tools. It is estimated that one in three people will suffer from depression at some point in their life and for each person there is an individual patient journey to navigate. It doesn't help that men, and older men in particular, do not visit doctors as often as women and the disease is under-diagnosed. People in the US tend to fare better than people in the UK as annual health checks are carried out in the former whereas in the latter, we only go to the doctor when we are ill - it should be renamed the National Sickness Service.

Our 'mood' is a bit like a pendulum on a clock and tends to swing either side of the mid point. For some people the arc of the swing is larger than 'the average' (which doesn't exist by-the-way) and they are termed either 'cyclothymic' or in more severe cases, bi-polar and previously 'manic depression'. Our mood can be influenced by psychological factors, including our digestive health, sexual health, circle of friends, respect at work, level of activity etc. but if we are predisposed to psychiatric chemical imbalances then our ability to deal with these external factors can be impaired.

There are plenty of good points made by both sides of what I'm now (and only 7 posts in!!) considering the pharma/alternative debate on this forum and I'm sure the OP has already heard most of them. But here are a couple of specifics:

* Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Does drinking too much, not exercising, smoking and general lethargy cause depression or are they symptoms of an already well-established condition?

* Bi-polar patients are often treated using lithium carbonate to try and reduce the arc of the mood-pendulum's swing but these drugs require a lot of fine-tuning to get it right.

* Mr Plum is right that older antidepressants acted a bit like a "chemical kosh", mainly tricyclics or monoamine oxidise inhibitors, but they are rarely used at a full therapeutic dose and I would remonstrate with a doctor trying to give any of my friends or family something so barbaric. They have terrible side-effects and disastrous impacts not only on other drugs but also many common foods such as grapefruit.

* Mr Plum may perhaps be less familiar with more modern antidepressants such as selective serotonin and noradrenalin reuptake inhibitors as it has been shown that patients with clinically diagnosed depression almost always have low levels of these two hormones.

* When bad things happen, not everybody copes in the same way and they shouldn't be judged as a result. Moving to Hua Hin or any other beauty spot is not going to change the thoughts and emotions we have, or the way we react since our personal philosophies have been laid down over decades and decades so are very hard-wired.

* Talking therapy can work in combination with other treatments. If you want to look further at how you can help yourself cope internally with what happens to you externally, read some of Victor Frankl's work. He was a holocaust survivor and also a neurologist and psychiatrist and if there's anyone who lived the theory of "it's not what happens to you in life, it's how you react to it", it's Dr Frankl.

* Most suicides occur when a patient is coming out of the deep pit of depression, not going into it or during, and there are various reasons for that which I won't go into here. What I will say is that I'm alarmed that a poster talks about suicide and nobody appears to bat an eyelid. You don't need to be a shrink to talk to people and take an interest in what they're up to, you just need to care and can learn a lot about yourself too.

[MrPlum]

...read some of Victor Frankl's work. He was a holocaust survivor and also a neurologist and psychiatrist and if there's anyone who lived the theory of "it's not what happens to you in life, it's how you react to it", it's Dr Frankl.

I read 'Man's Search for Meaning' many years ago. Well worth reading.

What I will say is that I'm alarmed that a poster talks about suicide and nobody appears to bat an eyelid.

Spoke to him yesterday and today and he sounded cheerful. That may not be how he is really feeling but it's something.

[NOKYAI]

Interesting that the OP was diagnosed with Bi polar at 15yrs old! I wonder how long ago this was? It is certainly 'unusual' to make the diagnosis in the UK at such a young age without a compelling family history. I also wonder if you receive such a diagnosis what effect this has on your interpretation of normal changes in mood and your resilience to knocks we all receive through out our life.
I do prescribe Antidepressants to my patients short term (6-18 months) but in 28 yrs have seen VERY few Bi polar children. I also specialise in ADHD and the poster who stated no one has died from inattention or hyperactivity is forgetting (or ignoring) Impulsivity! I regularly see patients with ADHD who have taken impulsive overdoses.

[Takiap]

Interesting that the OP was diagnosed with Bi polar at 15yrs old! I wonder how long ago this was? It is certainly 'unusual' to make the diagnosis in the UK at such a young age without a compelling family history. I also wonder if you receive such a diagnosis what effect this has on your interpretation of normal changes in mood and your resilience to knocks we all receive through out our life.
I do prescribe Antidepressants to my patients short term (6-18 months) but in 28 yrs have seen VERY few Bi polar children. I also specialise in ADHD and the poster who stated no one has died from inattention or hyperactivity is forgetting (or ignoring) Impulsivity! I regularly see patients with ADHD who have taken impulsive overdoses.

Yes, but these are Category II drugs in the same class as cocaine, morphine, etc. Let's be honest here, drug addicts often overdose on the drug/drugs they take. I would blame the nature of the drugs rather than Impulsivity. Many ADHD drugs are amphetamine-like drugs, and are increasingly being used as recreational drugs by addicts, and also by students. It's a known fact that many teens are able to bluff their way through ADHD screening in order to obtain the drugs.


Of course I'm not a doctor, so I can't, and don't want to make an argument for or against any prescription treatments.



According to the United States AFSP, suicide rates continue to increase, with approximately four people dying from suicide every hour in the USA. Surely if these drugs were effective, suicide rates would be in decline? A morbid topic, and even more so since one of the closest friends I've ever had took his own life on Friday.

[MrPlum]

I wonder if the OP was treated for depression prior to being diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder? There are now a number of studies showing stimulants and anti-depressants can cause Bipolar Disorder in depressed patients. Unfortunately, changes appear to be permanent.

Robert Whitaker has done some good work investigating psychiatric drugs and mental illness. He provides some references here... http://robertwhitaker.org/robertwhitake ... ldren.html