If you haven't bought by now, you've probably missed the boat, unless of course there is a spectacular reversal of the present boom.
There is a lot of speculative greed in HH at the moment, prices being asked are unreasonable and few represent value for money.
Buying your dream home, or nightmare.
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malcolminthemiddle
- Guru
- Posts: 591
- Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:56 pm
- Location: Here,there and everywhere
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appleman_thai
- Amateur
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:26 pm
- Location: Dublin, Ireland
HH RE
I got to agree with Johnny here....
THere seems to be two camps - 1 who are against buying land or houses and 2 who are pro.
THere are valid arguments on both sides but it comes down to the individual and how they perceive the risk. It is certainly risky to invest here but the returns for that risk are usually higher. You must do research as much as possible and that means at ground level too and not just on chatboards.
Its imperative to get a good lawyer who knows about real estate - not just any lawyer.
I have bought in BKK and HH but both are condos. I am seriously looking at land and will have no problem with setting up a company. THe key is the company should really be trading so if its just the rental income then thats enough. Dont just set up a dummy company and leave it. THats where your problems will start.
HH is really getting a lot of exposure all over the world and there have been many recent articles in ireland. all positive.
THe current political climate will slow down that enthusiasm but i think it will start up again pretty fast.
People in Europe in their 40's and 50's are looking for somewhere to retire to. THey can spend 6 months in HH and 6 months at home and rent out the house when they are not in it.
Research, preparation, investigatation and most importantly if you cant afford to lose it then dont bring it in here!!
Just my thoughts!
THere seems to be two camps - 1 who are against buying land or houses and 2 who are pro.
THere are valid arguments on both sides but it comes down to the individual and how they perceive the risk. It is certainly risky to invest here but the returns for that risk are usually higher. You must do research as much as possible and that means at ground level too and not just on chatboards.
Its imperative to get a good lawyer who knows about real estate - not just any lawyer.
I have bought in BKK and HH but both are condos. I am seriously looking at land and will have no problem with setting up a company. THe key is the company should really be trading so if its just the rental income then thats enough. Dont just set up a dummy company and leave it. THats where your problems will start.
HH is really getting a lot of exposure all over the world and there have been many recent articles in ireland. all positive.
THe current political climate will slow down that enthusiasm but i think it will start up again pretty fast.
People in Europe in their 40's and 50's are looking for somewhere to retire to. THey can spend 6 months in HH and 6 months at home and rent out the house when they are not in it.
Research, preparation, investigatation and most importantly if you cant afford to lose it then dont bring it in here!!
Just my thoughts!
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tuktukmike
- Guru
- Posts: 728
- Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 1:02 am
Last post on this subject as i think we are going in circles.
Found this so everyone can at least understand the current regs.
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Foreign Ownership of Land in Thailand
As a general matter, Thai law prohibits foreigners from owning land in Thailand. The prohibition applies to foreign individuals and juristic entities (e.g., companies or partnerships). Additionally, it applies to Thai registered juristic entities, which are owned or controlled by foreigners. This law note describes generally the Thai law prohibiting land ownership by foreigners, as well as exceptions to and strategies for operating under the prohibition.
Prohibition on Foreign Ownership of Land
1. Thai Land Law:
Under Sec. 86 of the Thai Land Law, a foreigner may own land in Thailand only if permitted by treaty. In fact, Thailand does not have a treaty with any country permitting foreigners from that country to own land. Therefore, foreigners are effectively prohibited from owning land in Thailand. Under Sec. 97 of the Land Law, the definition of a foreigner includes Thai registered companies or partnerships in which more than 49% of the capital is owned by foreigners or of which more than half the shareholders or partners are foreigners.
As a practical matter, it is often difficult for a Thai company with foreigners having substantial minority ownership (e.g., 51% Thai, 49% foreign) to acquire land in Thailand. The policies of Land Offices vary throughout Thailand, but often they require that Thais own at least 60% or 70% of a company in order to register land ownership.
Under former Land Office policy, Thai nationals who married foreigners were prohibited from ownership of land in Thailand. This prohibition was based on principles of community property law and a general presumption that the Thai spouse was holding the land for the benefit of the foreigner. However, under current Land Office policy the Thai spouse can own land in Thailand, provided that the foreign spouse signs a letter declaring the property to be the separate property of the Thai spouse and waiving any interest in the property.
Mike.
Found this so everyone can at least understand the current regs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Foreign Ownership of Land in Thailand
As a general matter, Thai law prohibits foreigners from owning land in Thailand. The prohibition applies to foreign individuals and juristic entities (e.g., companies or partnerships). Additionally, it applies to Thai registered juristic entities, which are owned or controlled by foreigners. This law note describes generally the Thai law prohibiting land ownership by foreigners, as well as exceptions to and strategies for operating under the prohibition.
Prohibition on Foreign Ownership of Land
1. Thai Land Law:
Under Sec. 86 of the Thai Land Law, a foreigner may own land in Thailand only if permitted by treaty. In fact, Thailand does not have a treaty with any country permitting foreigners from that country to own land. Therefore, foreigners are effectively prohibited from owning land in Thailand. Under Sec. 97 of the Land Law, the definition of a foreigner includes Thai registered companies or partnerships in which more than 49% of the capital is owned by foreigners or of which more than half the shareholders or partners are foreigners.
As a practical matter, it is often difficult for a Thai company with foreigners having substantial minority ownership (e.g., 51% Thai, 49% foreign) to acquire land in Thailand. The policies of Land Offices vary throughout Thailand, but often they require that Thais own at least 60% or 70% of a company in order to register land ownership.
Under former Land Office policy, Thai nationals who married foreigners were prohibited from ownership of land in Thailand. This prohibition was based on principles of community property law and a general presumption that the Thai spouse was holding the land for the benefit of the foreigner. However, under current Land Office policy the Thai spouse can own land in Thailand, provided that the foreign spouse signs a letter declaring the property to be the separate property of the Thai spouse and waiving any interest in the property.
Mike.
This is certainly true. In case anyone doesn't already realise, the paper that you sign as a foreigner at the land office is the declaration waiving your right to reclaim any value from the property in the event of its sale by your spouse. This is where your confidence in your relationship comes in, as I have posted before and I have no wish to re-open a debate on that subject.tuktukmike wrote:under current Land Office policy the Thai spouse can own land in Thailand, provided that the foreign spouse signs a letter declaring the property to be the separate property of the Thai spouse and waiving any interest in the property.
Both my eyes are bulging so far open I think they're gonna pop!!!
My gripe is simple. Only trust an agent that tells you your Co. has to be seen to be trading! Not many do in my personal experience.
A few snippets above alude to the problems that can be experienced if you don't.
Another comment that caught my eye: rent for 6 months in the UK and 6 months in HH? Seems to be a dearth of houses in HH now and from where I live in the UK, 6 months isn't long enough for most who I would need to attract.
Another one was visiting this and that Govt. officials. Come to my Govt. office in the UK and you'll hear what you want to. If they ain't a good lawyer, their input has as much clout as what I'm writing.
And it does seem that many of you have forgotten that some of us aren't into a property lottery. Some want to find a place to call their home. It would be a bonus if it increases in value, but then what? For most it will mean that everywhere in the locale has increased as well, so you could either downsize or relocate and buy somewhere cheaper I guess?
The soundest advice I have heard is don't invest what you can't afford to lose. That'll do for me, which is why I won't ever sell my place in the UK.
But I'm still looking to buy.
My gripe is simple. Only trust an agent that tells you your Co. has to be seen to be trading! Not many do in my personal experience.
A few snippets above alude to the problems that can be experienced if you don't.
Another comment that caught my eye: rent for 6 months in the UK and 6 months in HH? Seems to be a dearth of houses in HH now and from where I live in the UK, 6 months isn't long enough for most who I would need to attract.
Another one was visiting this and that Govt. officials. Come to my Govt. office in the UK and you'll hear what you want to. If they ain't a good lawyer, their input has as much clout as what I'm writing.
And it does seem that many of you have forgotten that some of us aren't into a property lottery. Some want to find a place to call their home. It would be a bonus if it increases in value, but then what? For most it will mean that everywhere in the locale has increased as well, so you could either downsize or relocate and buy somewhere cheaper I guess?
The soundest advice I have heard is don't invest what you can't afford to lose. That'll do for me, which is why I won't ever sell my place in the UK.
But I'm still looking to buy.
Talk is cheap
tuktukmike wrote:
The foreigner is given the majority of the voting rights and can be the only director of the company, and the only person in the company who can make any contractual dealings. Again, perfectly legal under Thai law.
See below extract from Thai solicitor:
"Many people believe that because you only own 49% or less of the shares, you only own 49% or less of the assets (land, house, cash, etc) and if you sell, you may have to split the proceeds with the other shareholders. This should not be the case if your company was setup correctly. The company owns 100% of the assets and so long as you own a majority of the voting rights you can do anything that the law allows, including selling assets and transferring money to another bank account."
Burger
That's right Mike, that's why the solicitor's set up our companies on a 49%/51% or 39%/61% basis, so that they are perfectly legal under Thai law.Under Sec. 97 of the Land Law, the definition of a foreigner includes Thai registered companies or partnerships in which more than 49% of the capital is owned by foreigners or of which more than half the shareholders or partners are foreigners.
The foreigner is given the majority of the voting rights and can be the only director of the company, and the only person in the company who can make any contractual dealings. Again, perfectly legal under Thai law.
See below extract from Thai solicitor:
"Many people believe that because you only own 49% or less of the shares, you only own 49% or less of the assets (land, house, cash, etc) and if you sell, you may have to split the proceeds with the other shareholders. This should not be the case if your company was setup correctly. The company owns 100% of the assets and so long as you own a majority of the voting rights you can do anything that the law allows, including selling assets and transferring money to another bank account."
Burger
More than half the shareholders cannot be foreigners.
Must be minimum of 7 shareholders, at least 4 of 7 or majority must be Thai.
Thai shareholders must own at least 49% OF THE SHARES ISSUED.
However, there are 'preference' shares and 'ordinary' shares (just like western companies where thieves like Conrad Black or Bernie Ebbers can own 10-15% and control huge companies to their benefit).
Articles of Association can be structured totally within the law to allow the 'ordinary' shares to have more votes per share than the others, thus giving control of decisions to holder(s) of the 'ordinary' shares.
A bit confusing linguistically because the 'ordinary' shares would be called 'preferred' shares in the west. Here, the language is reversed.
Must be minimum of 7 shareholders, at least 4 of 7 or majority must be Thai.
Thai shareholders must own at least 49% OF THE SHARES ISSUED.
However, there are 'preference' shares and 'ordinary' shares (just like western companies where thieves like Conrad Black or Bernie Ebbers can own 10-15% and control huge companies to their benefit).
Articles of Association can be structured totally within the law to allow the 'ordinary' shares to have more votes per share than the others, thus giving control of decisions to holder(s) of the 'ordinary' shares.
A bit confusing linguistically because the 'ordinary' shares would be called 'preferred' shares in the west. Here, the language is reversed.
lomuamart wrote:
)
However if you visit some of the local 'shopping mall' type solicitors, then you get vague and differing answers. Fact is some of them do not know the law and are not even properly qualified solicitors.
You pay peanuts, you get ...........
My advice, spend the time and money and get proper advice from Bangkok firms.
Burger
You're right that there is confusion about what the law is between us farang's. But we have now consulted several large Bangkok legal practices, and there is not confusion amongst them. We are putting our trust in those that know the law inside out (we hope"You can do anything the law allows". Well, it seems that there's some confusion about what the law is.
)However if you visit some of the local 'shopping mall' type solicitors, then you get vague and differing answers. Fact is some of them do not know the law and are not even properly qualified solicitors.
You pay peanuts, you get ...........
My advice, spend the time and money and get proper advice from Bangkok firms.
Burger
Agree with that from a legal point of view.Burger wrote: My advice, spend the time and money and get proper advice from Bangkok firms.
Also I'll say what has been said before, property in Thailand is a medium risk investment so don't ever spend more that you are prepared to lose.
Who is the happier man, he who has braved the storm of life and lived or he who has stayed securely on shore and merely existed? - Hunter S Thompson
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appleman_thai
- Amateur
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:26 pm
- Location: Dublin, Ireland
Legal Advice
Yep, do your research and pay for a decent lawyer.......
In fact, by employing a good lawyer you probably will even save money! When I bought my COndo in Bangkok my Lawyer immediately negotiated new terms for tax payments which saved me over 100k.......
Also, make sure its a real estate lawyer - i cant over emphasise this!!! Its like going to a dentist and saying your foot hurts...... get the right guy with the right qualifications.
Overall, i still think that THailand has a lot of potential but one thing they must focus on is theinfrastructure to support all this development.
This is something that they need to work on in HH. Water, elextricity, roads, waste etc.......
In fact, by employing a good lawyer you probably will even save money! When I bought my COndo in Bangkok my Lawyer immediately negotiated new terms for tax payments which saved me over 100k.......
Also, make sure its a real estate lawyer - i cant over emphasise this!!! Its like going to a dentist and saying your foot hurts...... get the right guy with the right qualifications.
Overall, i still think that THailand has a lot of potential but one thing they must focus on is theinfrastructure to support all this development.
This is something that they need to work on in HH. Water, elextricity, roads, waste etc.......
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karenjuice
- Rookie
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:09 pm
- Location: spain
BANGKOK LAWYER
I am coming to buy in HH in a couple of weeks. I have been in contact with and have set up an appointment with a law firm in Bangkok - Pensit and Law. I think someone from this site recommended them. They have sent me a lot of info. Has anyone else used them before? They told me it would cost 35,000 baht + vat to set up the company. Does this sound reasonable?
As long as I paid 10.000 Bt for setting up my company in Hua Hin, I think 35G is way too much.
And saying that, I really don't understand what you need a lawyer for.
(That is MY opinion and there is no need to discuss that)!!
Some want a lawyer, some don't see the point.
And saying that, I really don't understand what you need a lawyer for.
(That is MY opinion and there is no need to discuss that)!!
Some want a lawyer, some don't see the point.
I intend to live forever - so far so good.
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Mongo Slade
- Member
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:22 am
- Location: USA MARYLAND
Buying your dream home or nightmare
Hey Jaime,
You make a lot of sense as to what you say. I am engaged to a wonderful Thai woman and we plan on getting married when I return to Thailand next November. I'm purchasing land and we're building a house on it. I've been following this forum pertaining to land ownership and everyone seems to be hung up on full ownership. I am in total agreement with you, if you cannot afford to loose it, then don't buy it. In essence we don't really own anything anyway. Instead of worrying about ownership.....why can't we just relax and enjoy what there is to enjoy. It seems to me that people who are use to being in control, find it very frightening when the shoe is on the other foot.
Sometimes you just have to go with the flow.....
You make a lot of sense as to what you say. I am engaged to a wonderful Thai woman and we plan on getting married when I return to Thailand next November. I'm purchasing land and we're building a house on it. I've been following this forum pertaining to land ownership and everyone seems to be hung up on full ownership. I am in total agreement with you, if you cannot afford to loose it, then don't buy it. In essence we don't really own anything anyway. Instead of worrying about ownership.....why can't we just relax and enjoy what there is to enjoy. It seems to me that people who are use to being in control, find it very frightening when the shoe is on the other foot.
Sometimes you just have to go with the flow.....
One must always revisit the past in order to move ahead to the future.
Re: Buying your dream home or nightmare
You're a lucky man to have so much money that ownership dosn't matter.Mongo Slade wrote:Hey Jaime,
You make a lot of sense as to what you say. I am engaged to a wonderful Thai woman and we plan on getting married when I return to Thailand next November. I'm purchasing land and we're building a house on it. I've been following this forum pertaining to land ownership and everyone seems to be hung up on full ownership. I am in total agreement with you, if you cannot afford to loose it, then don't buy it. In essence we don't really own anything anyway. Instead of worrying about ownership.....why can't we just relax and enjoy what there is to enjoy. It seems to me that people who are use to being in control, find it very frightening when the shoe is on the other foot.
Sometimes you just have to go with the flow.....
For me, it's a matter of principle - and money.
I wouldn't go into a shop that "exercised their right" to claim I didn't own the bottle of beer that I just purchased and take it off me.
"Hippy principles" are great in theory, but in practice they simply don't work.